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Old 09-18-2009, 07:51 AM   #1
Endorsed
Hornet's Avatar
OP
 
Joined: Aug 2006
From: Bellevue, Washington
Fuel Injector Cleaner/Additive
Need recommendations? I have not read any threads on this subject, is it because no one uses it or motorcycle PGM-FI systems don't need it?

Thanks.

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Old 09-18-2009, 07:53 AM   #2
Knee Dragger
Driftertank's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2008
From: Assorted Locations, WA
Blog Entries: 7

I Ride: Nekkid!!!
“ Quote:
Originally Posted by Hornet View Post
Need recommendations? I have not read any threads on this subject, is it because no one uses it or motorcycle PGM-FI systems don't need it?

Thanks.
Mechanical & Technical




You KNEW it was coming, people...... I just got there first.

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Old 09-18-2009, 08:09 AM   #3
Track School Dazed
james1300's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2005
From: CENTRAL

I Ride: When I can
I use Chevron Techron.
I also try and fuel using Chevron fuel. It has Techron in it too.

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Old 09-18-2009, 06:50 PM   #4
Superbiker
ddonacazx12's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2007
From: Camas, Washington

I Ride: 05 zx12r
Damn it DRIFTER... you beat me to it.


I've always been partial to gumout or stp.

(but pretty much all the name brands are about the same... imho)



Now for the really anal among us..., I will mention that I try to only use it the last tank of fuel before an oil change:
Most fi cleaners break down petrolium products and their residual compunds... oil is a petrolium based product. (unless you run full syn, which I do... but I still adhear to the old ways)

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Old 09-18-2009, 06:54 PM   #5
Thaumaturgist
 
Joined: Dec 2008
From: In sane!
Blog Entries: 2

I Ride: Valkyrie/R1150GS Adventure/KX500
I've been told many times to use Seafoam.

I can't say it has done much, yet I don't have any issues with any of my bikes.

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Old 09-18-2009, 07:32 PM   #6
Training Wheels
ckholloway's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2009
From: Ontario, Oregon

I Ride: Hayabusa
Seafoam is great for preventive maintenance, and if you have a problem you can't buy a better cleaner/additive.

This is just my opinion I have been selling auto parts and chemicals for years and have sold tons of different products but seafoam is the only one I would ever put in my fuel tank.

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Old 09-18-2009, 08:37 PM   #7
Superbiker
 
Joined: Dec 2005
From: Marysville

I Ride: A lifted JK 0|||||||0
BG44K

God has spoken. Nuff said

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Old 09-18-2009, 08:38 PM   #8
At Banned Camp
greenr6's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2007
From: mount vernon, wa

I Ride: a green beat up lowered 929rr
don't use any of them... fuel injector cleaner products are pretty much snake oil for vehicles. and your just wasting your money.. best just to run it through a fuel injector cleaning system... chevron with techron? don't fall for that crap either..almost all fuels are the same.. no matter where you get them.. some say shell.. some say chevron.. the only one that used to be different was BP.. at their AMPM stations because they use 10 percent ethanol.. but now since the laws here have changed just about everywhere has that godforsaken ethanol in it. NO i know some will try and flame me saying they know otherwise.. But when it comes down to thermal dynamics of fuels and how they work i am very well informed.. Hell i work for one of the dayum evil oil refineries here in the state.. It's kinda sad to see people get duped..much like how people actually think running higher octane equals better mileage and power.. wich in almost all cases is actually just the opposite..and it does more damage to your vehicle then good.. and you end up paying more for it..

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Old 09-18-2009, 09:04 PM   #9
Track School Dazed
james1300's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2005
From: CENTRAL

I Ride: When I can
“ Quote:
Originally Posted by greenr6 View Post
don't use any of them... fuel injector cleaner products are pretty much snake oil for vehicles. and your just wasting your money.. best just to run it through a fuel injector cleaning system... chevron with techron? don't fall for that crap either..almost all fuels are the same.. no matter where you get them.. some say shell.. some say chevron.. the only one that used to be different was BP.. at their AMPM stations because they use 10 percent ethanol.. but now since the laws here have changed just about everywhere has that godforsaken ethanol in it. NO i know some will try and flame me saying they know otherwise.. But when it comes down to thermal dynamics of fuels and how they work i am very well informed.. Hell i work for one of the dayum evil oil refineries here in the state.. It's kinda sad to see people get duped..much like how people actually think running higher octane equals better mileage and power.. wich in almost all cases is actually just the opposite..and it does more damage to your vehicle then good.. and you end up paying more for it..
I work near Tank farms. Chevron is the only fuel that has a tank specifically that adds its 'snake oil' at the farm before it goes the the gas stations.
Your right. Fuel is like wheat. Its a commodity. Lots of refinery's sell fuel.
Its loaded into trucks and sent where its needed.

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Old 09-18-2009, 09:16 PM   #10
Novice Racer
WTFO's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2007
From: An unstated X,Y,Z coordinate

I Ride: 09 Blk Daytona 675 (better than hoochie), BLK/Silver 06 Tiger, Red 04 R1, Yellow 99 Daytona 955i
“ Quote:
Originally Posted by greenr6 View Post
don't use any of them... fuel injector cleaner products are pretty much snake oil for vehicles. and your just wasting your money.. best just to run it through a fuel injector cleaning system... chevron with techron? don't fall for that crap either..almost all fuels are the same.. no matter where you get them.. some say shell.. some say chevron.. the only one that used to be different was BP.. at their AMPM stations because they use 10 percent ethanol.. but now since the laws here have changed just about everywhere has that godforsaken ethanol in it. NO i know some will try and flame me saying they know otherwise.. But when it comes down to thermal dynamics of fuels and how they work i am very well informed.. Hell i work for one of the dayum evil oil refineries here in the state.. It's kinda sad to see people get duped..much like how people actually think running higher octane equals better mileage and power.. wich in almost all cases is actually just the opposite..and it does more damage to your vehicle then good.. and you end up paying more for it..

Agreed the ethanol has done more to screw things up than anything else. My older Triumph just flat does not like the 10 - 13 percent ethanol mix. I have had more problems with the fuel system than anything.

That said I have used Lucas fuel injector cleaner with decent results. I am probably the worlds worst about addatives being snake oil, but I have to somewhat say different with the Lucas stuff.

Bottom line is the ethanol though.

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Old 09-18-2009, 09:34 PM   #11
At Banned Camp
greenr6's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2007
From: mount vernon, wa

I Ride: a green beat up lowered 929rr
“ Quote:
Originally Posted by james1300 View Post
I work near Tank farms. Chevron is the only fuel that has a tank specifically that adds its 'snake oil' at the farm before it goes the the gas stations.
Your right. Fuel is like wheat. Its a commodity. Lots of refinery's sell fuel.
Its loaded into trucks and sent where its needed.
bullshit all refineries do.in fact the shell refinery has the techron snake oil at its site..where it adds techron to sell it.. and has its vpower snake oil it adds it stations..has alosrt of other companies additives.. they all have the additive tanks that they add after the fact.. the bottom line is there are already stringent federal and state laws requiring a certain amount an type of additives.. keep adding more on top of that and you start putting more non combustible products.. or products that combust at a slower rate then normal gas..thus taking away from power and mileage..t makes the claim of being cleaner because there is less combustion taking place in the combustion chamber.. these may help keep valves clean..but the unburnt..or still burning product that goes out then goes into the catalytic converter and gets used up there..and that lessens the life of a catalytic converter and actually causes it start to plug..further robbing power and performance of the engine..you want to keep the highest percentage of combustion in the combustion chamber.. for most power and performance. This is achieved by using the lowest octane rated fuel possible int the particular engine..without causing engine pinging..aka premature combustion. as the fuel gets burnt where it belongs and having a proper fuel to air ratio will actually be the best thing you can do to maintain engine life..cleanliness and performance..

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Old 09-18-2009, 10:06 PM   #12
Licensed
justin86's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2007
From: medford, OR.

I Ride: 06 R1/ 06 CRF450R and single moms!
You could also try some race gas and a hand full of special cleaners?
I all ways use Shell V-power with their "special additives" in both bikes and my truck. 200hrs in the dirt bike, oh yea gunk build up. 16,000 miles on the R1, yea there is gunk on the valves. Same with the truck. The only thing I have found that works for sure is carb clean and lots of it. Maybe even a tooth brush to get those stubborn spots.

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Old 09-18-2009, 10:17 PM   #13
Newbie
happypuppy's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2007
From: Snohomish,WA

I Ride: DL1000
What is the point of Shell adding N2? I see no point, am I missing something?

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Old 09-18-2009, 10:26 PM   #14
Superbiker
 
Joined: Dec 2005
From: Marysville

I Ride: A lifted JK 0|||||||0
“ Quote:
Originally Posted by greenr6 View Post
don't use any of them... fuel injector cleaner products are pretty much snake oil for vehicles. and your just wasting your money.. best just to run it through a fuel injector cleaning system... chevron with techron? don't fall for that crap either..almost all fuels are the same.. no matter where you get them.. some say shell.. some say chevron.. the only one that used to be different was BP.. at their AMPM stations because they use 10 percent ethanol.. but now since the laws here have changed just about everywhere has that godforsaken ethanol in it. NO i know some will try and flame me saying they know otherwise.. But when it comes down to thermal dynamics of fuels and how they work i am very well informed.. Hell i work for one of the dayum evil oil refineries here in the state.. It's kinda sad to see people get duped..much like how people actually think running higher octane equals better mileage and power.. wich in almost all cases is actually just the opposite..and it does more damage to your vehicle then good.. and you end up paying more for it..
wow, there could have not been a bigger paragraph of misinforamtion right there.

first off. i have seen what good cleaners can do. techron really does work. bg44k will clean the carbon right off the top of a piston in one treatment. no shit it will. i have actually sent abore scop down a spark plug hole that was full of carbon on a zx11. after one tank of bg 44k. the top of the piston was silver. the valves were clean as well. prior to treatment there was a nice layer of goo on the valves as well.

ethanol only screws shit up in cars that do not have closed loop fuel injection systems. a modern vehicle senses the mixture at the tailpipe with an 02 sensor and trims fuel values correctly. ethanol is an octane booster (for those who dont know e85 has some seriously high knock resistance). its only drawback is stioch happens at ratios of 9:1 instead of 14:1. carbureted cars suffer as the a/f is all screwed up while closed loop fi will compensate for it. the reason your fuel milage drops is because the ratio must now go richer to burn properly. the amount of BTUs for ethanol is less but the 10% added to todays fuels hardly drops power. if anything the added knock resistance helps things along in a car engine as they are subject to some pretty brutal use in stop and go traffic. ethanol is the only octane booster that does not produce harmful byproducts. by product of ethanol combustion is water and c02. the byproducts of kerosene, tetraeythl lead and mtbe will kill your children one day. wha would you rather have?

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Old 09-18-2009, 10:54 PM   #15
Superbiker
 
Joined: Dec 2005
From: Marysville

I Ride: A lifted JK 0|||||||0
“ Quote:
Originally Posted by greenr6 View Post
bullshit all refineries do.in fact the shell refinery has the techron snake oil at its site..where it adds techron to sell it.. and has its vpower snake oil it adds it stations..has alosrt of other companies additives.. they all have the additive tanks that they add after the fact.. the bottom line is there are already stringent federal and state laws requiring a certain amount an type of additives.. keep adding more on top of that and you start putting more non combustible products.. or products that combust at a slower rate then normal gas..thus taking away from power and mileage..t makes the claim of being cleaner because there is less combustion taking place in the combustion chamber.. these may help keep valves clean..but the unburnt..or still burning product that goes out then goes into the catalytic converter and gets used up there..and that lessens the life of a catalytic converter and actually causes it start to plug..further robbing power and performance of the engine..you want to keep the highest percentage of combustion in the combustion chamber.. for most power and performance. This is achieved by using the lowest octane rated fuel possible int the particular engine..without causing engine pinging..aka premature combustion. as the fuel gets burnt where it belongs and having a proper fuel to air ratio will actually be the best thing you can do to maintain engine life..cleanliness and performance..
there are no unburnt products left behind from those additives. they are designed to react with fuel during the combustion process and help catalyze the transformatin of hc to c02 and water. the rest of the stuff on a lot of over the counter additives is just a nice fat dose of toulene that eats deposits off parts. tolulene is also a octane booster and it is pure hydrocarbon. it is made up of one molucule chain. it leaves less crap than gasoline does when it burns. gasoline on the other hand is made up of several different chains of hydrocarbons. they by nature will leave more carbon deposits than those so called bad additives that get your cat clogged up.

so in fact. gasoline is not as clean burning on its own. however it on the hydrocarbon chain is denser yet still retains a nice fast vaporization rate, it is a very efficient fuel. but it will clog up your cat long before any simple hydrocarbon additive will (simple HCs are ones made up of a single carbon) chain.

so lets get the fact straight. simple HC based additives have higher knock resistance. produce less BTUs but do not leave as much unburned HCs because there is less carbon on thier chains to begin with.

gasoline on the other hand is made up of complex chains, produces higher BTUs but leaves way more unburned HC in its combustion process.

achiving the highest percentage of combustion is more or less the process of proper engine managment not octane. octane is the resistance to knock not the rate of burn.

just remember the cats job is only there to clean up the mess that latency from your 02 sensor and ecu does not clean up in time. you can achive a pretty low HC output without a cat. most modern Fi bikes will produce readings of under 800ppm. there are 1.5 liter cars with cats on them that produce higher hc readings than my busa with no cat.

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Old 09-18-2009, 10:58 PM   #16
Superbiker
 
Joined: Dec 2005
From: Marysville

I Ride: A lifted JK 0|||||||0
“ Quote:
Originally Posted by happypuppy View Post
What is the point of Shell adding N2? I see no point, am I missing something?
because druing combustion it releases 2 oxygen molocules to help oxidize the ethanol that is added to it

ethanol stioch = 9:1
gasoline stioch = 14.7:1

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Old 09-18-2009, 11:24 PM   #17
Licensed
ch3no2's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2008
From: Westminster, CO

I Ride: 03 Aprilia Tuono Rsv, 00 Honda VFR, 83 Honda V65 Magna
Styrofoam cup test
Berryman's Chemtool injector/carb cleaner is the best stuff I've ever used and I've rebuilt many carbs in my day. Pour it in a styrofoam cup and it melts, pour STP, Gunk or any other product and the cup remains. The 1 gallon pail of Berrryman's carb dip is wicked stuff and you'll smell like it for a week if you get any on you

Their moto: Pour it and floor it!!!

Good sheite Maynard!!!

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Old 09-19-2009, 03:33 AM   #18
Shredder
FastCat's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2005
From: nowhere, wa
N2O works really well as a top-end cleaner.

If you don't want to go to all the trouble of adding solenoids and a bottle to the bike, you can warm it up, set the idle up to about 5,000RPM, and just use a squirt-bottle full of water and aim it right down the center of the bellmouth. Carbon will be GONE from the piston-tops and combustion-chamber. Make sure you're in a VERY well-ventilated space though - and the neighbors are likely to be unhappy about it...

For the fuel-system itself, I use phalanges. ...phalanges in combination with compressed-air, q-tips, semichrome, b-12, and an ultrasonic tank.

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Old 09-19-2009, 04:13 AM   #19
Superbiker
ddonacazx12's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2007
From: Camas, Washington

I Ride: 05 zx12r
“ Quote:
Originally Posted by greenr6 View Post
bullshit all refineries do.in fact the shell refinery has the techron snake oil at its site..where it adds techron to sell it.. and has its vpower snake oil it adds it stations..has alosrt of other companies additives.. they all have the additive tanks that they add after the fact.. the bottom line is there are already stringent federal and state laws requiring a certain amount an type of additives.. keep adding more on top of that and you start putting more non combustible products.. or products that combust at a slower rate then normal gas..thus taking away from power and mileage..t makes the claim of being cleaner because there is less combustion taking place in the combustion chamber.. these may help keep valves clean..but the unburnt..or still burning product that goes out then goes into the catalytic converter and gets used up there..and that lessens the life of a catalytic converter and actually causes it start to plug..further robbing power and performance of the engine..you want to keep the highest percentage of combustion in the combustion chamber.. for most power and performance. This is achieved by using the lowest octane rated fuel possible int the particular engine..without causing engine pinging..aka premature combustion. as the fuel gets burnt where it belongs and having a proper fuel to air ratio will actually be the best thing you can do to maintain engine life..cleanliness and performance..
Aren't you the guy who said you run your motor oil like 10K miles between changes?

I would point out all that's wrong with your ideas... but BUBBA beat me to it.

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Last edited by ddonacazx12; 09-19-2009 at 04:19 AM..
 
Old 09-19-2009, 04:16 AM   #20
Superbiker
ddonacazx12's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2007
From: Camas, Washington

I Ride: 05 zx12r
“ Quote:
Originally Posted by FastCat View Post
N2O works really well as a top-end cleaner.
For the cheapscates among us just read it as ...he meant H2O


Naaawwwsssss is too expensive.
lol

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Last edited by ddonacazx12; 09-19-2009 at 04:21 AM..
 
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