Shadow Ace died while running...no power no nothing. - Page 2

justinsabre · 07-21-2012, 05:41 PM

i would see if u can still smell that fried smell of plastic or parts, i would be looking at the coils or what controls the coils, one of the ignition parts have fried, if u can smell or know where the smell was coming from more then likely u will find ur part that is bad, im just up the road in midland if u end up needing help..

Northwestgrizzly · 07-21-2012, 08:33 PM

Originally Posted by Andy Capp

Ok, I just re-read the thread (which is laidened with great advice BTW!) and now I got some questions;

Did you check the stator and rectifier connectors?
Did you get battery voltage where you marked your white arrow?
Can you get access to the connector on the bottom of that relay/solenoid?

Props to Texas for posting the wiring diagram which I only just looked at. That relay is a great place to check a number of things because it is, via internal connection, supplying power to the ignition switch and hence the rest of the bike. Try to measure the voltage on the small red wire at the relay. If it is not present try again with the rectifier unplugged.

If you have battery voltage on the small red wire on the start relay check it arrives at the red wire at the ignition switch. Then check the red/blk wire coming out of the ignition and, as TexasL said, you are going to have to chase that down until you stop getting power.

Aside from KISS also use your nose. Electrical burning smells (normally associated with popping sounds and subsequent power failure) linger for a long while and can lead you directly to a failed component. Like that diode pair in the fusebox area.

1. As for checking the stator and rectifier connectors, where are they?
2. I did check for battery voltage where you marked your white arrow, and it was the same as from the positive battery post.
3 As for getting access to the connector on the bottom of that relay/solenoid. Do you mean the starter relay?
4. I will check the individual wires for current as you and Texasl stated.
5. I have followed my nose for smells and I am unable to find anything. Even when it originally happened but it was faint then and faded quickly.

I'm sorry to sound like a broken record folks, but I still am not understanding how the starter relay switch or kill switch would kill the bike while running and then not even allow any current any where in the bike to run lights indicators or anything. Any help?

Andy Capp · 07-21-2012, 08:46 PM

I'm sorry I don't have any bike specific stuff with regard to location but in general terms the left side cover houses the stator and the wires come out to a connector. Your rectifier, conspicuous by its heat sink, is probably some where on the frame towards the battery (ish).

From the diagram TexasL supplied all your main power is supplied via that start relay/solenoid. That integral fuse is not for the start circuit it is the main ignition fuse, its connection is internal to that unit. An internal failure will leave you electrically dead. If you can't get to it easily check for power at the ignition switch connector.

Hope this helps

Northwestgrizzly · 07-22-2012, 04:34 AM

Originally Posted by Andy Capp

I'm sorry I don't have any bike specific stuff with regard to location but in general terms the left side cover houses the stator and the wires come out to a connector. Your rectifier, conspicuous by its heat sink, is probably some where on the frame towards the battery (ish).

From the diagram TexasL supplied all your main power is supplied via that start relay/solenoid. That integral fuse is not for the start circuit it is the main ignition fuse, its connection is internal to that unit. An internal failure will leave you electrically dead. If you can't get to it easily check for power at the ignition switch connector.

Hope this helps

All of this information has been helpful, so thank you. I just haven't figured it out yet is all.

Not sure how to check for power at the ignition but I'll figure something out.

Wrench · 07-22-2012, 09:46 AM

Correct the voltage problem or reading first. I would start by taking the battery somewhere and have it tested (most places will do it for free). Get a volt-meter that reads correctly. Charge the battery. Charge voltage will be about 13.5v and the battery should settle to 12.6 after the charger has been off for a while. Use your volt meter and test every connection from the battery (including both sides of every fuse), including the ground cable circuit. If you have a voltage drop across a connection, you have a bad connection.

Post your readings and that should be a good start.

FWIW, I had a battery last year that failed internally. Static voltage between the posts was correct, but would drop dramatically when pressing the Start button. There was evidently a broken connection inside the battery.

JeffW · 07-22-2012, 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by Wrench

Correct the voltage problem or reading first. I would start by taking the battery somewhere and have it tested (most places will do it for free). Get a volt-meter that reads correctly. Charge the battery. Charge voltage will be about 13.5v and the battery should settle to 12.6 after the charger has been off for a while. Use your volt meter and test every connection from the battery (including both sides of every fuse), including the ground cable circuit. If you have a voltage drop across a connection, you have a bad connection.

Post your readings and that should be a good start.

FWIW, I had a battery last year that failed internally. Static voltage between the posts was correct, but would drop dramatically when pressing the Start button. There was evidently a broken connection inside the battery.

People, based on his current tests, the battery is NOT the problem. Quit telling him to check the battery.
He has a failed component somewhere on the way to the rest of the system. If the main fuse is good, there may be a burnt wire or something. There is NOT a short in the system, or the battery would be totally discharged.
There are two paths for power, one goes directly to starter RELAY, and is clearly NOT the problem. The other path, through the 30 amp MAIN fuse goes to lights, ignition, kill switch, etc. Somewhere on that path, there is something burnt, or broken.
I hope this helps. There are usually multiple fuses on a fuse block, as well as a main fuse, or fusible Link (a wire, designed to burn through, like a fuse, if too much power is drawn).

RedKat600 · 07-22-2012, 10:35 AM

Originally Posted by JeffW

People, based on his current tests, the battery is NOT the problem. Quit telling him to check the battery. Really? 11 volts is OK? Since when? The battery has not been eliminated as being 100% OK, so we can't rule it out......yet
He has a failed component somewhere on the way to the rest of the system. If the main fuse is good, there may be a burnt wire or something. There is NOT a short in the system, or the battery would be totally discharged. Not necessarily. If the short is in the ignition circuit, it will come and go with the switch. Lots of different ways this is wrong depending on how the bike is wired. Wire could have arced out to ground once.....still a short, just an open one now.
There are two paths for power, one goes directly to starter RELAY, and is clearly NOT the problem. The other path, through the 30 amp MAIN fuse goes to lights, ignition, kill switch, etc. Somewhere on that path, there is something burnt, or broken. Or his battery gave up the ghost. If something was burnt past the fuse, it should have popped, so the short SHOULD be between the fuse and the battery. Testing the fuse will answer this question. I believe OP said all fuses were good so.....
I hope this helps. There are usually multiple fuses on a fuse block, as well as a main fuse, or fusible Link (a wire, designed to burn through, like a fuse, if too much power is drawn).

.

JeffW · 07-22-2012, 01:31 PM

People, based on his current tests, the battery is NOT the problem. Quit telling him to check the battery. Really? 11 volts is OK? Since when? The battery has not been eliminated as being 100% OK, so we can't rule it out......yetAs he stated in an earlier post, jumpering across the relay to the starter, the starter and engine turn strongly. I admit, the voltage might be a tad low, but it's working.

He has a failed component somewhere on the way to the rest of the system. If the main fuse is good, there may be a burnt wire or something. There is NOT a short in the system, or the battery would be totally discharged. Not necessarily. If the short is in the ignition circuit, it will come and go with the switch. Lots of different ways this is wrong depending on how the bike is wired. Wire could have arced out to ground once.....still a short, just an open one now. You are correct, there may be a short that caused the component failure. I apologize.

There are two paths for power, one goes directly to starter RELAY, and is clearly NOT the problem. The other path, through the 30 amp MAIN fuse goes to lights, ignition, kill switch, etc. Somewhere on that path, there is something burnt, or broken. Or his battery gave up the ghost. If something was burnt past the fuse, it should have popped, so the short SHOULD be between the fuse and the battery. Testing the fuse will answer this question. I believe OP said all fuses were good so..... I know there still could be a bad fuse. I don't believe any fuse unless I test it's continuity.

I hope this helps. There are usually multiple fuses on a fuse block, as well as a main fuse, or fusible Link (a wire, designed to burn through, like a fuse, if too much power is drawn).

strangerin · 07-22-2012, 06:27 PM

This seems simple: Every thing is dead, so start the closest to the fuse in the starter relay bracket and work your way out.
If you just skimmed over the dia. supplied by Texasl...it's got to be the yellow/ red runs that to eng start stop sw or maybe the red running to ign sw OR both. You should be able to just probe those wires.(wo taking toomuch apart)

dwh4784 · 07-23-2012, 09:55 AM

It really sounds to me like your ignition switch could be the problem. You turn the key on but get no lights and no start with the starter button. You should be able to test whether you have constant 12v going into it, and if so, test whether anything comes out when turned on.

shadowride69 · 07-23-2012, 07:14 PM

pm me ill help you out

Northwestgrizzly · 07-28-2012, 05:36 AM

Been working insane long shifts...haven't had time to look at it.

Northwestgrizzly · 08-14-2012, 03:00 PM

Well to make a long story short...I think I figured out the problem. To start off...the 30AMP fuse in the starter relay was blown....yes I know I said it was good...thats because I screwed up. I thought I was checking the 30 amp fuse on the starter relay when in fact I was checking the spare that was attached to the botom of the relay. I did not know that it was a spare since it appeared to be seated snugly in its slot. I did not realize the fuse was on the insdie of the relay. Once I figure that out I replaced the fuse and reconnected the battery and the fuse promptly blew out as soon as the battery cables were attached.

My neighbor who is a very good auto mechanic came over and we tracked down the short using his very nice Ohm meter to the Rectifier. It showed a short all the way from the battery through the starter relay to the rectifier and then when we disconnected the wiring harness fro the rectifier and tested the wiring harness post rectifier, the Ohm meter didnt beep at us. We reconnected the wiring harness and tested past the rectifier and it beeped at us again. Disconnected and nothing. So it appears I need a new rectifier, though I wish there was a way to test the rectifier as a stand alone iten to know for sure.

Thoughts?

NoMornings · 08-14-2012, 08:09 PM

Disconnect the rectifier, put in a new fuse, make sure the battery is charged. Hook up the battery - if the fuse doesn't blow, go ahead and try starting the bike. If it starts and runs with everything working (except for charging the battery..), then the odds are pretty good that the rectifier is bad.

The factory manual should have a procedure to test the rectifier with an ohmmeter, if that's what you want to do.

Andy Capp · 08-14-2012, 08:40 PM

Thanks for the follow up. Yep to above but I also gather some auto shops will test a reg for free nowadays.

Northwestgrizzly · 08-15-2012, 09:41 AM

Originally Posted by NoMornings

Disconnect the rectifier, put in a new fuse, make sure the battery is charged. Hook up the battery - if the fuse doesn't blow, go ahead and try starting the bike. If it starts and runs with everything working (except for charging the battery..), then the odds are pretty good that the rectifier is bad.

The factory manual should have a procedure to test the rectifier with an ohmmeter, if that's what you want to do.

I'm on A Shadow forum also and a fella over there suggested the same thing. I just tried it and...................it worked!!!! Awesome! The bike runs with the rectifier taken out of the electrical loop. This is awesome! Thanks folks for the help...now I jut need a new rectifier.

taznhell · 08-15-2012, 12:52 PM

Regulator... #1 Honda problem with your symptoms.


07-21-2012, 05:41 PM	#21
justinsabre Licensed Joined: Sep 2010 From: beaverton or I Ride: 82 honda sabre v45	i would see if u can still smell that fried smell of plastic or parts, i would be looking at the coils or what controls the coils, one of the ignition parts have fried, if u can smell or know where the smell was coming from more then likely u will find ur part that is bad, im just up the road in midland if u end up needing help.. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


07-21-2012, 08:46 PM	#23
Andy Capp Superbiker Joined: Oct 2010 From: Marysville, WA I Ride: 08 675, 72 XL250, 93 PW80	I'm sorry I don't have any bike specific stuff with regard to location but in general terms the left side cover houses the stator and the wires come out to a connector. Your rectifier, conspicuous by its heat sink, is probably some where on the frame towards the battery (ish). From the diagram TexasL supplied all your main power is supplied via that start relay/solenoid. That integral fuse is not for the start circuit it is the main ignition fuse, its connection is internal to that unit. An internal failure will leave you electrically dead. If you can't get to it easily check for power at the ignition switch connector. Hope this helps __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


07-22-2012, 09:46 AM	#25
Wrench Railer Joined: Feb 2005 From: West Richland I Ride: Pitster Motard	Correct the voltage problem or reading first. I would start by taking the battery somewhere and have it tested (most places will do it for free). Get a volt-meter that reads correctly. Charge the battery. Charge voltage will be about 13.5v and the battery should settle to 12.6 after the charger has been off for a while. Use your volt meter and test every connection from the battery (including both sides of every fuse), including the ground cable circuit. If you have a voltage drop across a connection, you have a bad connection. Post your readings and that should be a good start. FWIW, I had a battery last year that failed internally. Static voltage between the posts was correct, but would drop dramatically when pressing the Start button. There was evidently a broken connection inside the battery. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


07-22-2012, 01:31 PM	#28
JeffW Permit Joined: Aug 2007 From: Rochester I Ride: '05 Bandit 1200, '84 VF1100S, '87 XR600	People, based on his current tests, the battery is NOT the problem. Quit telling him to check the battery. Really? 11 volts is OK? Since when? The battery has not been eliminated as being 100% OK, so we can't rule it out......yetAs he stated in an earlier post, jumpering across the relay to the starter, the starter and engine turn strongly. I admit, the voltage might be a tad low, but it's working. He has a failed component somewhere on the way to the rest of the system. If the main fuse is good, there may be a burnt wire or something. There is NOT a short in the system, or the battery would be totally discharged. Not necessarily. If the short is in the ignition circuit, it will come and go with the switch. Lots of different ways this is wrong depending on how the bike is wired. Wire could have arced out to ground once.....still a short, just an open one now. You are correct, there may be a short that caused the component failure. I apologize. There are two paths for power, one goes directly to starter RELAY, and is clearly NOT the problem. The other path, through the 30 amp MAIN fuse goes to lights, ignition, kill switch, etc. Somewhere on that path, there is something burnt, or broken. Or his battery gave up the ghost. If something was burnt past the fuse, it should have popped, so the short SHOULD be between the fuse and the battery. Testing the fuse will answer this question. I believe OP said all fuses were good so..... I know there still could be a bad fuse. I don't believe any fuse unless I test it's continuity. I hope this helps. There are usually multiple fuses on a fuse block, as well as a main fuse, or fusible Link (a wire, designed to burn through, like a fuse, if too much power is drawn). __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter Last edited by JeffW; 07-22-2012 at 03:08 PM..


07-22-2012, 06:27 PM	#29
strangerin Knee Dragger Joined: Jul 2005 From: spokane I Ride: other peoples when they let me, working on Honda VF750	This seems simple: Every thing is dead, so start the closest to the fuse in the starter relay bracket and work your way out. If you just skimmed over the dia. supplied by Texasl...it's got to be the yellow/ red runs that to eng start stop sw or maybe the red running to ign sw OR both. You should be able to just probe those wires.(wo taking toomuch apart) __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


07-23-2012, 09:55 AM	#30
dwh4784 Peg Dragger Joined: Mar 2007 From: Spokane	It really sounds to me like your ignition switch could be the problem. You turn the key on but get no lights and no start with the starter button. You should be able to test whether you have constant 12v going into it, and if so, test whether anything comes out when turned on. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


07-23-2012, 07:14 PM	#31
shadowride69 Pit Crew Joined: Jun 2012 From: Olympia WA I Ride: 2009 shadow 750	pm me ill help you out __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


07-28-2012, 05:36 AM	#32
Northwestgrizzly Railer Joined: Apr 2008 From: Yelm, Wa I Ride: 98 Honda Shadow Ace.	Been working insane long shifts...haven't had time to look at it. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


08-14-2012, 03:00 PM	#33
Northwestgrizzly Railer Joined: Apr 2008 From: Yelm, Wa I Ride: 98 Honda Shadow Ace.	Well to make a long story short...I think I figured out the problem. To start off...the 30AMP fuse in the starter relay was blown....yes I know I said it was good...thats because I screwed up. I thought I was checking the 30 amp fuse on the starter relay when in fact I was checking the spare that was attached to the botom of the relay. I did not know that it was a spare since it appeared to be seated snugly in its slot. I did not realize the fuse was on the insdie of the relay. Once I figure that out I replaced the fuse and reconnected the battery and the fuse promptly blew out as soon as the battery cables were attached. My neighbor who is a very good auto mechanic came over and we tracked down the short using his very nice Ohm meter to the Rectifier. It showed a short all the way from the battery through the starter relay to the rectifier and then when we disconnected the wiring harness fro the rectifier and tested the wiring harness post rectifier, the Ohm meter didnt beep at us. We reconnected the wiring harness and tested past the rectifier and it beeped at us again. Disconnected and nothing. So it appears I need a new rectifier, though I wish there was a way to test the rectifier as a stand alone iten to know for sure. Thoughts? __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


08-14-2012, 08:09 PM	#34
NoMornings Pit Crew Joined: Jan 2010 From: Walla Walla, Wa I Ride: 1989 Honda VTR250 (x 4), 1984 Honda VF500F (x2)	Disconnect the rectifier, put in a new fuse, make sure the battery is charged. Hook up the battery - if the fuse doesn't blow, go ahead and try starting the bike. If it starts and runs with everything working (except for charging the battery..), then the odds are pretty good that the rectifier is bad. The factory manual should have a procedure to test the rectifier with an ohmmeter, if that's what you want to do. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


08-14-2012, 08:40 PM	#35
Andy Capp Superbiker Joined: Oct 2010 From: Marysville, WA I Ride: 08 675, 72 XL250, 93 PW80	Thanks for the follow up. Yep to above but I also gather some auto shops will test a reg for free nowadays. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


08-15-2012, 12:52 PM	#37
taznhell Shredder Joined: Jul 2008 From: Cornelius, Oregon I Ride: Everyday	Regulator... #1 Honda problem with your symptoms. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter

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