S1000rr - Page 2

Thaloc · 08-16-2012, 08:59 PM

Originally Posted by Gotama

6 minutes that's gotta be some kind of record

First thing he does when He logs into the site is click on the Search button, and types in BMW

MB2 · 08-16-2012, 09:02 PM

OP, there is no perfect answer to your question.

What you are seeing is how engineering works. Someone comes up with an idea that works, and happens to be better then what anyone else has at the time, and one lucky manufacturer gets to put their name on it. The trick is, whoever has the fastest, or most powerful, bike will always be in a constant limbo - so long as manufacturers want high sales numbers. Yes, BMW has a lot of engineering experience...but the bottom line is so does everyone else - it's just a matter of where they focus it.

So, how do they do it? Engineering.

Exile04 · 08-16-2012, 09:37 PM

What a minute where is the SV in this discussion. i mean come on...

courier11sec · 08-16-2012, 09:56 PM

Originally Posted by Thaloc

First thing he does when He logs into the site is click on the Search button, and types in BMW

vbulletin has a feature that allows you to replace certain strings of letters or numbers with others of your choosing.
Too bad no one funny owns this site.

KNanthrup · 08-16-2012, 09:58 PM

Originally Posted by Duck

Read further, that's what I'm basing my info on. They found it second in street but first in track and first overall. Obviously rider has everything to do with wins but that's not the topic I am presenting. What I'm getting at is what is it that gives them the edge in power that the other manufacturers like Kawasaki can't reach? If others could bridge that gap they would be unstoppable because they have cornering more or less down to a science. Out of anyone I would think Kawasaki would present an outright powerbike that would top BMW.

It might surprise you that engineers don't necessarily put all of their time and effort in to creating the highest peak output possible, but that creating the most 'usable power' is actually important. Where does an engine spend most of it's time? What powerand characteristics conduce getting around a track fastest? The BMW is a good package because it makes a lot of peak power and still has a competitive midrange... but more importantly, the rest of the bike is a good package... by that I mean the brakes, chassis, suspension, electronics, ergos. BMW did not win or place well in shootouts simply because it dynoed at the highest peak horsepower... infact I would argue that peak power has the LEAST significance in the overall package.

As a Ducati owner (and I'm assuming fan) you should be well aware of this, as up until the 1199 Ducati had been far competitive in the peak horsepower arena for many generations. But guess what, they made a lot of usable power in a good package and so they were still competitive.

Stepping off my soapbox... the simple answer to your question is that BMW have great engineers and they simply built an engine that excels in top end power.. the only difference is made in those last few thousand rpms.

Duck · 08-17-2012, 09:54 AM

Those last few thousand RPMs are where a lot of these riders spend a majority of their time though, and the fact that Ducati was making huge power in the past is exactly what makes me curious how BMW does it. For Ducati is was the introduction of their Desmo system that gave them an edge up. From what I've read BMW doesn't have any particular system that gives them an edge up. I suppose it could be that they simply have higher tolerances all around which would make sense as to why they are able to put power to the ground. It seems as though they created some new system, be it in the transmission or frame or what not that enables more power to be pushed to the ground and not lost in transmission and chain and chassis.

Remember we aren't talking about a little bit more power we are talking about 20 more horsepower than the kawasaki. Neither companie's crank horsepower claim has been proven because it generally doesn't matter, but if the manufacturers are at least somewhat correct the BMW makes 192 and puts down 183, whereas the Ducati makes 195 and puts down 159. That's a pretty big discrepancy to me.

Are_Six · 08-17-2012, 11:42 AM

Yeah I think Ducati is a bit optimistic with their crank HP numbers... The drive train loss between motorcycles is all very similar. So the number at the wheel does provide a good comparison between what the numbers would be at the crank.

The desmo valve train isn't that big an advantage. There is a little less parasitic loss from heating up (compressing) valve springs, but most of that energy is recovered in traditional valve spring valve trains on the following cycle. The valves springs compression frequency is tuned to that of the engine and they sit there bouncing along, not taking much additional energy to increase the compression frequency.

The unique thing about the desmo valve train is non symmetrical valve profiles. Opening the intake valves as quickly as possible, and then closing them slowly. But it is only slightly more efficient.

Here's a cool primary source from the University of Utah on Desmo vs Conventional Valve Trains.

http://library.utem.edu.my/index2.ph...905&Itemid=208

An interesting piece in there is at 4,000rpm a valve with 20mm of lift is accelerated at 500g's. Those things are cruising even at low rpms... The page labeled as 22 (25 according to Adobe) shows theoretical profiles of maximally efficient desmo valve trains vs conventional. Basically the desmo valve train can be more aggressive for various reasons discussed in the paper.

Anyway basically the S1000RR gives up a little low end but kicks ass on top. Even with a 20% displacement advantage the Panigale is down more than a few ponies. But it's going to be because the I-4's can rev to the moon.

Just don't get into a straight line race with one. That's not what your bike was designed for.

Duck · 08-17-2012, 12:25 PM

Either way with most street bikes (I believe the BMW and the Duc are the same) they are limited to 185 mph. That's some interesting data about the desmo, though I'm sure it was a huge advantage when it first came out. I would be interested to see someone do a crank HP test on the 1199. You all make very good points about the similar HP loss in drivetrain and I would definately like to see some solid numbers. Food for thought, though I have seen dyno runs from Tricolore models equipped with the electronic ohlins and termignoni system that put out 186 wheel.

Duck · 08-17-2012, 12:28 PM

Lee650 · 08-17-2012, 12:28 PM

I've got a 2010 S1000RR and last month rode a 2012 demo at The Ridge. The first thing I noticed was a much stronger mid range and not as much of a hit on the top end, which I felt was much better. It would be interesting to see a dyno run on both to compare the difference. But if I get a chance to upgrade I think it would be worth it.

Swanny · 08-17-2012, 12:30 PM

To the original question....

I have no idea...but the ginger kid souls and tank dwelling, octane shi**ing demon in the tank is as good a reason as any!

Fahren Sie schnell und Bremse spät bitches!

PeteN95 · 08-17-2012, 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by mcjunky

That Beemer motor is rockin it in the CRT bikes

Actually it's getting it's A$$ handed to it by the Aprilias, just ask Colin E.

In the first practice at Indy this am, Steve Rapp was only .1 sec off CE on that Kaw that didn't even qualify at Laguna, but 12mph slower on the straight!?

Lee650 · 08-17-2012, 01:05 PM

Originally Posted by PeteN95

Actually it's getting it's A$$ handed to it by the Aprilias, just ask Colin E.

In the first practice at Indy this am, Steve Rapp was only .1 sec off CE on that Kaw that didn't even qualify at Laguna, but 12mph slower on the straight!?

All the development for BMW is going to SBK not MotoGP. In my opinion, it's a better series to watch and much closer to the bikes, you purchase at a dealer, then any MotoGP bike.

Colin Edwards problem in not HP, it's not having the electronics to control it.

DGA · 08-17-2012, 01:45 PM

BMW does have extensive automotive engineering experience and are usually on the cutting edge of it. They have the knowhow and have finally translated it into a tremendous bike engine and doing a great job building rest of the bike as well. Others are close, great chassis all around, transmissions, brakes, electronics, suspension, but they don't have the engine. Till they do, they will always be second to BMW.

Avboden · 08-17-2012, 03:27 PM

Originally Posted by Lee650

All the development for BMW is going to SBK not MotoGP. In my opinion, it's a better series to watch and much closer to the bikes, you purchase at a dealer, then any MotoGP bike.

Colin Edwards problem in not HP, it's not having the electronics to control it.

exactly, http://www.visordown.com/motorcycle-...ogp/20916.html

as far as the engine goes...it's also the result of BMW cancelling their Formula 1 effort and having a whole bunch of very, very, very good engineers suddenly needing a project.

Bowers750 · 08-17-2012, 05:34 PM

A tri color with a full termi and a base with a full termi exhaust makes no difference. I have seen a base 1199 with a full termi, the rear wheel speed sensor was disconnected and it did have an aftermarket fuel module, put down 180 to the wheel. A lot of it is in the tune, that being said the s1000rr are great bikes a close friend of mine has one, I would never get rid of my panigale for it but still. In a straight line he can pull away a little but the twists is a different story

Armand · 08-17-2012, 09:20 PM

hmm, I'm going to have to dig out my mags. In one of them, I read a review of the 1199 and they were saying something about ducati wanted the bike to be more controllable for the average rider, so they dropped the torque a bit, and is therefore not as wheelie prone as the 1198. to me that translates into nothing more than electronics. bmw seems to have better electronics to keep the rider under control, while the duc hasnt quite mastered it yet

just my .02

KNanthrup · 08-17-2012, 11:00 PM

MB2 · 08-17-2012, 11:47 PM

Stop reading, start riding.

/thread

mikeonabike · 08-17-2012, 11:49 PM


08-16-2012, 09:02 PM	#22
MB2 Peg Dragger Joined: Jan 2010 From: Everett, WA I Ride: '67 CT90	OP, there is no perfect answer to your question. What you are seeing is how engineering works. Someone comes up with an idea that works, and happens to be better then what anyone else has at the time, and one lucky manufacturer gets to put their name on it. The trick is, whoever has the fastest, or most powerful, bike will always be in a constant limbo - so long as manufacturers want high sales numbers. Yes, BMW has a lot of engineering experience...but the bottom line is so does everyone else - it's just a matter of where they focus it. So, how do they do it? Engineering. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


08-16-2012, 09:37 PM	#23
Exile04 Peg Dragger Joined: May 2010 From: Renton, Federal way, Enumclaw, WA Blog Entries: 1 I Ride: 08' SV650s	What a minute where is the SV in this discussion. i mean come on... __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


08-17-2012, 09:54 AM	#26
Duck Licensed Joined: Jun 2011 From: Yakima, WA I Ride: 1199 Panigale	Those last few thousand RPMs are where a lot of these riders spend a majority of their time though, and the fact that Ducati was making huge power in the past is exactly what makes me curious how BMW does it. For Ducati is was the introduction of their Desmo system that gave them an edge up. From what I've read BMW doesn't have any particular system that gives them an edge up. I suppose it could be that they simply have higher tolerances all around which would make sense as to why they are able to put power to the ground. It seems as though they created some new system, be it in the transmission or frame or what not that enables more power to be pushed to the ground and not lost in transmission and chain and chassis. Remember we aren't talking about a little bit more power we are talking about 20 more horsepower than the kawasaki. Neither companie's crank horsepower claim has been proven because it generally doesn't matter, but if the manufacturers are at least somewhat correct the BMW makes 192 and puts down 183, whereas the Ducati makes 195 and puts down 159. That's a pretty big discrepancy to me. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


08-17-2012, 11:42 AM	#27
Are_Six Joined: Mar 2006 From: Seattle I Ride: 1099cc L-Twin in a sporty arrangment	Yeah I think Ducati is a bit optimistic with their crank HP numbers... The drive train loss between motorcycles is all very similar. So the number at the wheel does provide a good comparison between what the numbers would be at the crank. The desmo valve train isn't that big an advantage. There is a little less parasitic loss from heating up (compressing) valve springs, but most of that energy is recovered in traditional valve spring valve trains on the following cycle. The valves springs compression frequency is tuned to that of the engine and they sit there bouncing along, not taking much additional energy to increase the compression frequency. The unique thing about the desmo valve train is non symmetrical valve profiles. Opening the intake valves as quickly as possible, and then closing them slowly. But it is only slightly more efficient. Here's a cool primary source from the University of Utah on Desmo vs Conventional Valve Trains. http://library.utem.edu.my/index2.ph...905&Itemid=208 An interesting piece in there is at 4,000rpm a valve with 20mm of lift is accelerated at 500g's. Those things are cruising even at low rpms... The page labeled as 22 (25 according to Adobe) shows theoretical profiles of maximally efficient desmo valve trains vs conventional. Basically the desmo valve train can be more aggressive for various reasons discussed in the paper. Anyway basically the S1000RR gives up a little low end but kicks ass on top. Even with a 20% displacement advantage the Panigale is down more than a few ponies. But it's going to be because the I-4's can rev to the moon. Just don't get into a straight line race with one. That's not what your bike was designed for. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


08-17-2012, 12:25 PM	#28
Duck Licensed Joined: Jun 2011 From: Yakima, WA I Ride: 1199 Panigale	Either way with most street bikes (I believe the BMW and the Duc are the same) they are limited to 185 mph. That's some interesting data about the desmo, though I'm sure it was a huge advantage when it first came out. I would be interested to see someone do a crank HP test on the 1199. You all make very good points about the similar HP loss in drivetrain and I would definately like to see some solid numbers. Food for thought, though I have seen dyno runs from Tricolore models equipped with the electronic ohlins and termignoni system that put out 186 wheel. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


08-17-2012, 12:28 PM	#29
Duck Licensed Joined: Jun 2011 From: Yakima, WA I Ride: 1199 Panigale	__________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


08-17-2012, 12:28 PM	#30
Lee650 Streetfighter Joined: Apr 2007 From: Milwaukie, Oregon I Ride: S1000RR, 990 SM-T	I've got a 2010 S1000RR and last month rode a 2012 demo at The Ridge. The first thing I noticed was a much stronger mid range and not as much of a hit on the top end, which I felt was much better. It would be interesting to see a dyno run on both to compare the difference. But if I get a chance to upgrade I think it would be worth it. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


08-17-2012, 12:30 PM	#31
Swanny Chicken Strips Joined: Aug 2009 From: Renton, WA I Ride: S1000RR,SV650S,R75/5	To the original question.... I have no idea...but the ginger kid souls and tank dwelling, octane shiing demon in the tank is as good a reason as any! Fahren Sie schnell und Bremse spät bitches! __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter**


08-17-2012, 01:45 PM	#34
DGA Joined: Jun 2007 From: Portland, Oregon I Ride: naked	BMW does have extensive automotive engineering experience and are usually on the cutting edge of it. They have the knowhow and have finally translated it into a tremendous bike engine and doing a great job building rest of the bike as well. Others are close, great chassis all around, transmissions, brakes, electronics, suspension, but they don't have the engine. Till they do, they will always be second to BMW. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


08-17-2012, 05:34 PM	#36
Bowers750 Permit Joined: Apr 2011 From: Where the wild things are I Ride: Ducati 1199 Panigale	A tri color with a full termi and a base with a full termi exhaust makes no difference. I have seen a base 1199 with a full termi, the rear wheel speed sensor was disconnected and it did have an aftermarket fuel module, put down 180 to the wheel. A lot of it is in the tune, that being said the s1000rr are great bikes a close friend of mine has one, I would never get rid of my panigale for it but still. In a straight line he can pull away a little but the twists is a different story __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


08-17-2012, 09:20 PM	#37
Armand Peg Dragger Joined: Apr 2008 From: Oregon I Ride: Slow in the fast lane	hmm, I'm going to have to dig out my mags. In one of them, I read a review of the 1199 and they were saying something about ducati wanted the bike to be more controllable for the average rider, so they dropped the torque a bit, and is therefore not as wheelie prone as the 1198. to me that translates into nothing more than electronics. bmw seems to have better electronics to keep the rider under control, while the duc hasnt quite mastered it yet just my .02 __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


08-17-2012, 11:00 PM	#38
KNanthrup Shredder Joined: Jul 2008 From: Issaquah, WA I Ride: '09 CBR1000RR. '95 R1100GS	__________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


08-17-2012, 11:47 PM	#39
MB2 Peg Dragger Joined: Jan 2010 From: Everett, WA I Ride: '67 CT90	Stop reading, start riding. /thread __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


08-17-2012, 11:49 PM	#40
mikeonabike Chicken Strips Joined: Dec 2010 From: puyallup I Ride: 07 sv650s

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode