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Old 09-01-2012, 08:48 PM   #21
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“ Quote:
Originally Posted by SiCC View Post
hey i never said i obeyed the speed limit, it is merely a suggestion!!
I thought when I ride with you there are no speed limits.

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Old 09-01-2012, 08:49 PM   #22
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“ Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeames View Post
Sure, whatever you say.....
please give examples of people going the speed limit died from tar snakes.

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Old 09-01-2012, 08:50 PM   #23
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“ Quote:
Originally Posted by mattinski View Post
I thought when I ride with you there are no speed limits.
false. when i lead i always go 1 under the limit. you can blame Mark for setting such a blistering pace

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Old 09-01-2012, 08:51 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by SiCC View Post
please give examples of people going the speed limit died from tar snakes.
what he said.

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Old 09-01-2012, 08:52 PM   #25
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false. when i lead i always go 1 under the limit. you can blame Mark for setting such a blistering pace
damn Busa's!

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Old 09-01-2012, 08:54 PM   #26
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I rode from Cougar to Vancouver thru Amboy a couple of days ago with along with a bunch of 70+ year old guys (I'm 45) who rarely even reach the speed limit, let alone go over it. Of course I made it home alive, but even at an already reduced speed I had to slow down to try to find a decent line through many of the recently tar snaked corners. Any one of those things could have upset the average bike enough to cause a spill or allow someone to slip into oncoming traffic....either of which can easily kill a person.
Oh, I know, I know, you're such a good rider you don't have to worry about such things. I'm sure...Whatever you say.

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Old 09-01-2012, 09:06 PM   #27
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“ Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeames View Post
you're such a good rider you don't have to worry about such things.
true.

but aside from that tar snakes pose no danger going the speed limit at normal temperatures. assuming that the snakes are baking in direct sun light and get all nice and gooey it is still not enough to make your bike wash out. what happens is your tires slip, the width of the snake, then hook up. your bike is acting accordingly then regains composier. if you over react/over correct then that is rider error. tar snakes exist, learn to ride around/over them.

if youre hauling balls then the slippy slideys can get exaggerated and i agree shit can go wrong, but then your over the speed limit and its your fault.

i think i might have asked this, but please provide example of lethal speed limit accidents involving tar snakes?

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Last edited by SiCC; 09-01-2012 at 09:08 PM..
 
Old 09-01-2012, 09:24 PM   #28
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That's hard data to find, a Google search will find plenty of deaths involving tar snakes, but little to no details on speed...presumably because by the time the accident happens the only person who would truly know how fast the rider was going would be the rider...and he's dead.
I would tend to agree that properly applied tar snakes are less dangerous than improperly applied ones. (wide, to close together, etc)
But I think you're way off base to blame it all on excessive spreed. Speed is always a factor in any accident...as if you are not moving you are far less likely to get into an accident.
I can point out several areas where tar snakes have been applied in a manner that makes them incredibly hard to avoid even while well under the speed limit. That kind of thing just doesn't make sense to me. The various DOT's are adding a hazard to an already dangerous environment.
I suspect there is some variation to what is used or how it is applied or some other variables. I've ridden all over Oregon, Washington, Idaho, and Northen Cali on a bike and ran into tons of tar snakes. Some are barely noticeable even with dew on them, and others are down right menacing at any speed.
As of late SW Washington seems to be dumping these things all over our local roads...and as you can see by the other posters earlier in this thread these ones don't appear to be the barely noticeable ones.
It was an eighty degree day when I hit the ones out by Amboy. Mid-afternoon, zero moisture.
I really hate to see another hazard being added to our great roads. Hopefully they'll get better with time.

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Old 09-01-2012, 09:39 PM   #29
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“ Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeames View Post
That's hard data to find, a Google search will find plenty of deaths involving tar snakes, but little to no details on speed...presumably because by the time the accident happens the only person who would truly know how fast the rider was going would be the rider...and he's dead.
police often spend a lot of time determining the speed of vehicles involved in fatalities.

“ Quote:

I would tend to agree that properly applied tar snakes are less dangerous than improperly applied ones. (wide, to close together, etc)
But I think you're way off base to blame it all on excessive spreed.

I can point out several areas where tar snakes have been applied in a manner that makes them incredibly hard to avoid even while well under the speed limit. That kind of thing just doesn't make sense to me.
My point is you do not need to avoid them. At avg speed limits they may be scary to a lot of people, but not dangerous. Peoples reactions to them are, imo, what cause most accidents. I disagree that they cause fatalities, I just dont see it (at speed limit). over the speed limit, all bets are off.

the DOT may not be perfect but they do not make roads lethal to people, and if dangerous they generally provide proper signage.

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Old 09-01-2012, 10:00 PM   #30
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What I'm seeing you say is that someone should not crash due to a poorly applied tar snake(s) simply because they are going under the speed limit? That would imply a tremendous amount of engineering having been applied to the application of those tar snakes. Do you really believe that? I don't, not for one second.
It also assumes that the tar snakes are applied properly (per the engineered method) and a Google search will find many articles about various states attempting or contemplating modifying the way they apply the tar snakes as a result of motorcycle crashes, often resulting in fatalities (again, little reference to speed).
Of course all crashes do not necessarily mean a death, but nearly any crash has the potential for it.
I see what you're saying, often the tar snakes make riders uncomfortable but may (in your opinion) not result in so many crashes. What I'm saying is why not push our DOT's to properly apply them, only when and where absolutely necessary and/or seriously consider ways to make them less slick.
I haven't seen anyone post that they road through the sections of road the others posted about earlier (out near Amboy) and go holy crap, those new tar snakes are awesome!! So why do we put up with it?

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Old 09-01-2012, 10:15 PM   #31
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I was going under the limit when I almost lost my front from tarsnake. Was going slow because I was leading an injured rider with a jacked up bike out of the area who didn't know the way home from where we were at. Almost made him wipe out too and was surely going slower than I.

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Old 09-01-2012, 10:29 PM   #32
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If one were to place patches of ice 12-16" wide and 10-40' long (about proportional to the contact patch of a motorcycle tire compared to a car tire) and a couple of feet apart, running parallel to the direction of travel randomly placed all about the roads and on corners on road with otherwise normal pavement in the middle of the summer car traffic would grind to a halt, drivers would be furious, and accidents would happen.
Yet that is exactly what riders are expected to live with all year long.

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Old 09-02-2012, 07:59 AM   #33
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“ Quote:
Originally Posted by SiCC View Post
police often spend a lot of time determining the speed of vehicles involved in fatalities.



My point is you do not need to avoid them. At avg speed limits they may be scary to a lot of people, but not dangerous. Peoples reactions to them are, imo, what cause most accidents. I disagree that they cause fatalities, I just dont see it (at speed limit). over the speed limit, all bets are off.

the DOT may not be perfect but they do not make roads lethal to people, and if dangerous they generally provide proper signage.
Both of my parents worked for the DOT for years when I was younger, my dad as a civil engineer (the guy who designs the roads) and my mom investigated fatal accidents on State roads to determine fault. Her entire job was to determine where the fault lay for the accident she was investigating, whether it be driver error, road condition, improper signage, etc. Quite a few times she found that fatalities were caused as a direct result of fixable road conditions. And although my dad is a very intelligent man, the people building the road don't neccessarily follow the plans 100%. So, yes, the DOT does occasionally make roads that kill people. They're human too, after all.

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Old 09-02-2012, 08:05 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by dbrooks View Post
Both of my parents worked for the DOT for years when I was younger, my dad as a civil engineer (the guy who designs the roads) and my mom investigated fatal accidents on State roads to determine fault. Her entire job was to determine where the fault lay for the accident she was investigating, whether it be driver error, road condition, improper signage, etc. Quite a few times she found that fatalities were caused as a direct result of fixable road conditions. And although my dad is a very intelligent man, the people building the road don't neccessarily follow the plans 100%. So, yes, the DOT does occasionally make roads that kill people. They're human too, after all.
They're a little week on signage, at times, too.

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Old 09-02-2012, 08:20 AM   #35
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“ Quote:
Originally Posted by dbrooks View Post
Both of my parents worked for the DOT for years when I was younger, my dad as a civil engineer (the guy who designs the roads) and my mom investigated fatal accidents on State roads to determine fault. Her entire job was to determine where the fault lay for the accident she was investigating, whether it be driver error, road condition, improper signage, etc. Quite a few times she found that fatalities were caused as a direct result of fixable road conditions. And although my dad is a very intelligent man, the people building the road don't neccessarily follow the plans 100%. So, yes, the DOT does occasionally make roads that kill people. They're human too, after all.
No, no, all you have to do is stay under the speed limit and nothing can happen to you...

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Old 09-02-2012, 08:24 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by mikeames View Post
No, no, all you have to do is stay under the speed limit and nothing can happen to you...
Duhhhh I thought everybody knew that

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Old 09-02-2012, 09:13 AM   #37
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The question isn't whether tar snakes are dangerous or not -- they are. The question is what if anything will be done about it. I think the answer is what it usually is when dealing with government: nothing.

Under ideal circumstances, one skinny little tar snake shouldn't cause much difficulty. But when you have road maintenance morons slop huge amounts of that shit all over the place, then that contributes to bike riding problems. And they can create accidents or at least "oh shit!" moments.

I'd rather have the cracks in the road any day over those slippery bastards. But nobody is asking us.

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Old 09-02-2012, 09:19 AM   #38
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Well, i don't think anyone will ever be asking us...the squeaky wheel gets the grease in this world.
That's the reason I started this post is to find out if anyone or any group had made or was in the process of making any headway toward fixing the tar snake issue. Seems like the AMA or some of the other organized MC groups would be working on it, but I'm not finding much.
I was hoping to find such a group and do what I could to help. No such luck so far.

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Old 09-02-2012, 12:40 PM   #39
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I do find that it IS effective in slowing everyone down...so maybe that's the REAL point of that stuff. In that case, cheap and effective, w/ no law enforcement prescence required.

i am slow, but even i managed to slip a front on that crap. Maybe i'm getting faster and don't know it? ut-o!

I'll take sharp rocks in the cracks and alight coating of that tar snake over just a thick layer of that alone . At least you would have some kind of traction.

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Old 09-02-2012, 12:50 PM   #40
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I do my best to avoid them.

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