Texasl

The reason for moving away from the tiered licensing system was due to the large number of "entry" level motorcycles that were greater than 500 CC's. If memory serves me this was done back in the '90s, and there was little to no opposition, even from traffic safety. There was absolutely zero support for the European model of graduated licensing.

Headed out the door right now (chores for The Admiral, not riding, dammit) but I will get the full story out of the archives this evening.

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smokedu

I guess I am missing it? Sorry, if you were specifically addressing the BRC on bike size. At the time of my BRC you could ride a BMW F650GS. A couple were available in this class.

I consider myself a fairly versed rider. I ride a big bike. I believe I learn something every time I ride be it big or small. Imho anytime you take any form of training for motorcycles it is a good thing. I can honestly say I took some information from the BRC that did hone and upgrade my skills for the test which can easily move over to real world senarios.

You have to remember that the BRC is primarly intended for beginner riders. I specifically watched a few people that had never even sat on a motorcycle before let alone try to ride one. I walked away from the first day thinking there is no way these people are going to make it.
Bottom line is two out of the three did make it. It was amazing to see them learn the clutch, starting and stopping and the basic maneuvers to successfully progress to passing the test.
It was also stressed that this was just the beginning of training one should consider when riding a motorcycle. Continuing education and classes where highly suggested.
I am probably getting off base at this point.
Maybe, I miss understood the meaning of your post? However it is not their test. (Insert any credited licensing company here). They are simply following the approved curriculum and administering it. Same for the instructors. Just because this mentioned instructor hasn't been riding on the street for 20 years doesn't make him any less of an intructor. Are there great and not so great instructors? Probably, but there are certain requirements, training and testing to become an MSF instructor that must be met.

These places that offer motorcycle training along with endorsement classes have many different levels to achive the same result. I think quite a few people bite off more than they can chew if you will when they assume for ex: I have been riding on the street for 30 years with no endorsement and I got pulled over, now I am forced to get one. So they show up for the advanced endorsement class thinking this will be a breeze on their own bike.(insert x,y,z here). If they can get pass the basic check of starting, stopping, shifting and turning only then are they allowed to continue. You would be surprised how many people don't get to continue at this point and are referred to one of the lower classes that can help hone some of the basic skills on a smaller bike that can be transferred over to their bigger bike or any bike really.

I can appreciate where you are referring to the BRC. That people will eventually be learning to ride their own motorcycle. This is true, but they truly should not be on their own if they have learned the basic principles and how to apply them in a safe manner to successfully aquire their endorsement. What ever they ride.

My apologies in advance if I have misconstrued your original meaning.

Derick

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Locutus

Looks like I'm the one that missed something. I went to the link, you provided, and looked at the selection (see Below) ...

What type of motorcycles will I be riding in the BRC?

The types of motorcycles will vary over time. However, here is a list of common bikes used at our locations.

250cc Honda Rebel (cruiser)
250cc Kawasaki Ninja (sport)
250cc Suzuki GZ250 (cruiser)
225cc Yamaha XT225 (dual-sport)
200cc Suzuki DR200 (dual-sport)
200cc Yamaha TW200 (dual-sport)
125cc Kawasaki Eliminator (cruiser)
125cc Honda CB125 (standard)
Scooters Available by request

I saw no mention of the BMW F650GS. Web site out dated?

Will I still have to take a test with the DOL to earn my endorsement?

No, if you complete the Basic Rider Course and receive a completion card, by successfully passing our written and skills evaluation, you will have 180 days following the completion date of your training to obtain your motorcycle endorsement. However you will still be required to pay the DOL fee to have the endorsement added to your license. To keep your endorsement at license renewal time you will also need to renew your endorsement each time.

So this is the class that is set up for the endorsement test.

I think it does. If new riders are going to hit the road, so to speak, then they should receive instruction/training from someone that is experienced in this, just training to be an instructor isn't good enough. There is a big difference between a 300/400 lb bike and a 1000 lb (8 foot long) bike.

Do not misunderstand, it took me quite a while to learn this thing. I've been ridding over 35 years (most of it endorsed). Does that make me a better rider than ... say ... you? Fuck no it don't.

A lot of folks bit off more than they can chew, both in size and power. The ones that will make it (survive) will be the ones that admit it. If the training system, in place, worked we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Don't know how this new one will do. Anyway, it is not (or never was) my intend to frustrate, or antagonize, your presentation.

Personally I like the idea of putting the class on the road, like they do in those 18 wheeler classes.

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smokedu

I agree there is a big difference between your examples but the State doesn't care as long as it fits the definition of a motorcycle. We could get into motorhomes at this point too.

I also agree about the instructor to a point. Experience is a loose term. Please note up front this is my opinion and experience so far. Lets use me as an example.
I have been riding on and off for about 40 years. I looked into becoming a MSF instructor. I think you should look into it too. You sound like you might enjoy it. PM me and I will give you the contact information.
I went to a class explaining the outline of what was required to even be able to apply to become an instructor. You would not believe how many people showed up not having an endorsement or a motorcycle. (No shit)
Anyway, one of the requirements is to take a BRC within a year of appyling to become an instructor. I did this. I also took the old riding test and the new riding test before my BRC. Yes, I passed, but was it perfect nope. I also did another eval after my BRC class on my own bike because after the instucional classes to become an instructor you will have to do the skills test on your own bike.
I guess the point I am trying to make the way it was discribed to me is sure you can ride but my biggest problem is going to make sure that I realize other people are not at my abilities. There is so much more than "Experience". Do I know how to teach people? Can I adapt my teaching to get across to different types of people. Do you think trying to teach an 18 year old girl might take a different approach than a 50 year old Grandpa to meet the same goal? Of course it will.
Do you and I have this experience absolutley we do, but when I walked away from my BRC there is no teaching of any experience good or bad. Sure a question might come up to the instructor that may be spun around this experience per say, but from what I saw it is answered around the criteria being taught. Do you and I have ALOT we could add that may be benificial to the new rider? Sure, but this class is not the setting. We have the time to go over the proven and accredited material and that is it. There are people that spend their whole life writing these courses, knowing what works and what doesn't. The average human can only absorb so much for example. I am (assuming) if I was an instructor it is my job to deliever the material so the student understands and can safely apply the criteria. Not necessarily what my experience has or has not been. That is maybe another class that gets into a more advanced application.

No harm, no foul my friend. I enjoy the constructive conversation. Thank you for partaking. Looking forward to a ride or coffee sometime

Derick

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JMetz13

In my endorsement class, a girl dropped her bike twice and still passed...

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Locutus

Well ... there is a lot here. Am I a good teacher? I doubt it. I have had to write instruction manuals and then instruct my people on how to use digital/electronic loop controllers, for example. But I really don't have the temperament for it. But this had to be done, because there were no books on that subject and we got left with a bunch of electronic shit that gave us no other option. I had to learn it myself first.

So ... I do understand the difference in having experience and passing it on to others. 18 year old girls?! I think not! I have had several young girls tell me they wanted to get a motorcycle. I show them the 2 foot long scar on my leg. Then I asked them is ... why do you want one? Now this might be a little bit of a strong approach (the other half says I intimidate them).

I am, mildly surprised, how many of them had no answer. Just a girlish grin. I doubt that I would make a good teacher. Oh I could pass on some canned test data and what hoops need to be jumped through. But, IMO, that is dishonest. It ain't a game. Anyone that thinks it is ... I wouldn't want in my class.

I do think we could interesting conversations on this though. This needs to happen through out the MC community. Before the government has us for lunch.

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cletus

In my very informal survey of 2010 fatal crashes in Washington, I found that a huge percentage of single bike fatalities involved impaired riders. Given that we have so much to process and riding is very, very unforgiving, that so many drink and ride was shocking in the extreme. I'm not sure how the BRC could do any more about that. It has been quite a while, but I recall a section on drinking and riding. Unfortunately, you can't fix stupid.

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Khalid

Pete you took the words out of my mouth.
When I arrived 2 years ago I was shocked at the joke of a driving test I had to do.
And bike test was as our base test is but let me ride anything I want, I was limited to 14 hp back home.
It's a 5 day course to get your big boy license, 3 days training and 2 testing!

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Texasl

Any attempt to superimpose the UK/EU model upon the US will run head long into major cultural differences. There is a major disparity between how the overall populations view governmental intrusion into the choices of the average citizen.

Furthermore, there is a huge difference in American transportation choices, much of which is based on locality. It is a gross, but fairly accurate, characterization that the greater the population density the smaller displacement of the average motorcycle. As soon as you move out of the high density urban environment the perceived viability of small displacement motorcycles decreases. Whilst a commuter in the University district of Seattle might look at a 250 as a large commuter bike, by the time you hit the suburbs that same 250 is looked at as barely entry level, and by the time you hit the rural areas the 250 is something you toss into the back of the truck to have with you when you load up the travel trailer.

It's a matter of perspective. When I go to a skills day or head out on a group ride with local riders who do a lot of city commuting my 1.2 litre Guzzi is considered a seriously large bike. When I catch up to my cruiser riding touring friends they consider the Guzzi to be fairly small.

That culture is not ready for graduated licensing with the incumbent increased training.

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Wrench

The only way they are going to get better graduates of the program is to make the material harder. The only way to get riders to have control at "speed" is to increase the speeds in the training program.

But that is where they run into a brick wall. To practice at a level that teaches you to handle a bike well at higher speeds is too often viewed as teaching riders to break the speed limit.

This is the major difference between other leading countries who have great motorcycle licensing programs and ours. They push the acquisition of skill as paramount, and speeding is often overlooked. Here, following the speed limit is paramount, and skill is not seen as necessary.

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SteveO

Pennsylvania just enacted a new law for 16- and 17-year olds who want a motorcycle license. I think it's a good idea, and I think I'm going to sign up for one of the free safety courses. Here's part of the description of the new law:

"Under Act 84, which Governor Corbett signed on July 2, any person 16- or 17-years old who wants a motorcycle license must first complete the Basic Rider Course (BRC) offered by the Pennsylvania Motorcycle Safety Program (PAMSP). You will be covered by this change if you are scheduled for the motorcycle skills test on Friday Aug. 31 or thereafter.

"The PAMSP Basic Rider Course is free for Pennsylvania residents. It provides an introduction to the fundamentals of safe and responsible operation of a motorcycle and consists of 15 hours of classroom and riding instruction, five hours in the classroom and 10 hours on the course. Participants in the Basic Rider Course are supplied with motorcycles and helmets.

"Before they can take the licensing test, 16- and 17-year-olds must remain on the learner’s permit for six months and complete 65 hours of on-the-road training. Persons under 18 years of age also must show the DL-180C form signed by the parent or guardian that attests to the 65 hours of training being completed. The 15 hours of PAMSP training counts toward the 65-hour on-the-road requirement."

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Locutus

I didn't see anything, beyond classes and schedules, on those links. Don't mean something isn't there, just didn't see it. I went to the Motorcycle Safety Education Advisory Board site. There a little, not much though.

smokedu - Oddly (ironically) enough there is an entry (Public Forum), in the March 2nd minutes, about ... "Dave Wendell – use of G650GSs and Dave Swezey’s efforts at Ridewest BMW". This is just going to follow me around, I can see that.

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gogo_tiller

So I created my account in Aug of 2006 and haven't logged on since, I haven't had any one to ride with in the last year and a half I have owned my current TLR and of the few people I met on bikes at cycle gear they all refered to this sight


So any one in the Maple Valley WA area?

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cobra525

The stepped license may or may not have worked, but what is to stop a new rider from getting the top class lic? All you had to do was take the test on the appropriate sized machine for the big bike lic. and there you have it. Still a new on a liter bike. Thats' exactly what I did almost 20 years ago.

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Davidian

I took the MSF course back in June and my instructors told us that it was the last test before they changed to the new test, which is probably what everyone is referring to in this thread. We all rode their 250cc bikes, which I think are perfect for those low speed maneuvers. We had a couple girls drop their bikes, but that was it. One girl kept dropping hers, so they had to let her go, which worked out because she was getting too scared anyway and couldn't seem to get going fast enough to shift into 2nd gear.

I was messing around on my bike (a 650cc) yesterday sort of practicing some of the maneuvers and I have to say, I'm glad I didn't have to use my bike, it's way easier to perform the tests on a 250cc bike due to the low speeds. I'm still a new rider and have LOTS to learn, but I have to say the only way you're going to learn to ride is by riding YOUR OWN bike as often as possible. It was night and day coming off their 250cc bikes and getting onto mine.

I sometimes wonder if a lot of people are quick to say "speed is a factor" because we're a lot smaller than cars so it will always appear that we're going faster than we really are. Don't get me wrong, some people really are flying on their bikes, but that's their choice, testing is not going to stop people from riding the way they want, just like driving tests aren't going to stop people from driving like retards.

I have 1 bike mishap under my belt, and that was all rider error, it's going to happen, with both new and experienced riders, it all comes with the risk of riding a motorcycle. However, I think a lot of people just don't think about that or over look it. People are going to be stupid no matter what.

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Texasl

Hit the drop down menu for Street Riding on the Puget Sound Safety site and check out the advance training offers, or hit the Classes Offered drop down with Pacific Northwest Motorcycle Safety and check out the On Road Course or the Advance Rider Course. I can personally attest to the quality of many of the courses due to personal experience.

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Locutus

I don't doubt the quality of their classes. What I was looking for is the data that is got the bureaucrats in such an uproar. This does not seem to be a legislated change. So ... just who the hell is in charge and what and where is the process? Are they just looking at the WSP accident reports? Is there some kind of summery? All we get is new standards and some, 2 bit, news article?

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Texasl

You seem absolutely dedicated to giving me a research project, aren't you?

Message received loud and clear, now give me a bit of time to dig up the facts and put together a succinct report.

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Locutus

Never show intelligence.

I am more than willing to help. Unfortunately, the timing is off. We're off on a three week road trip. Even so ... this looks a lot like how building codes are done. Behind the scenes, away from to much scrutiny (that a good term?).

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Zenmervolt

Eh, it's not always that simple. For example, my '82 CB450SC puts out 45 hp (at 9,000 RPM). A brand new 883 Harley puts out the same HP despite nearly twice the displacement. (The Harley does have more than double the CB450's torque though, which makes the riding experience quite different.) Even with the difference in riding experience, I'm not sure that there's much reason to require more experience to ride the 45hp 883 Harley than to ride the 45hp CB450.

Similarly, the 650cc bikes like the SV650 are much less demanding of rider experience than the 600cc supersports due to the 650cc bikes' more linear power delivery.

Frankly, even a 1200cc (or 1800cc) Harley is less demanding of the rider than a 600cc supersport. The gap between types of motorcycles has opened up a lot in the last 20 to 30 years and a simple displacement-based graduated licensing system doesn't really make any sense now.

Most of the displacement-based graduated licensing systems are systems that have been in existence since back when pretty much all bikes were standards and when engine size was pretty much directly related to how much power a bike had. But that's not true now. They'd need to base the restrictions on something like insurance class, but even that varies from company to company.

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