Spike in WA Motorcycle Deaths Prompts New Tests - Page 4

Texasl · 09-03-2012, 06:14 PM

Originally Posted by Locutus

Never show intelligence.

I am more than willing to help. Unfortunately, the timing is off. We're off on a three week road trip. Even so ... this looks a lot like how building codes are done. Behind the scenes, away from to much scrutiny (that a good term?).

Not to worry, I've already set the wheels in motion on the data call. Enjoy your road trip.

Also, very few people would accuse me of showing (or possessing) intelligence.

mikeonabike · 09-03-2012, 06:22 PM

Most deaths I heard were caused by other cars hitting the riders.

ride4zen · 09-03-2012, 06:38 PM

Originally Posted by Texasl

You seem absolutely dedicated to giving me a research project, aren't you?

Message received loud and clear, now give me a bit of time to dig up the facts and put together a succinct report.

Larry

Mike just gave me his data...wanna have coffee, look at numbers and plan the revolution?

ride4zen · 09-03-2012, 06:39 PM

Originally Posted by mikeonabike

Most deaths I heard were caused by other cars hitting the riders.

Nope.

Texasl · 09-03-2012, 07:00 PM

Originally Posted by ride4zen

Nope.

Four farkin' pages to bait you out and all you have is "nope?"

ride4zen · 09-04-2012, 04:54 AM

Originally Posted by Texasl

Four farkin' pages to bait you out and all you have is "nope?"

Nope, sir?

Tromatic · 09-04-2012, 07:37 AM

Whatever you guys come up with to solve the problem, people will resist.

How about a time in the seat requirement? Tiered levels of displacement licensing based on years of riding. Your real problem is legislating stupidity, though.

acura9927 · 09-04-2012, 09:01 AM

60 deaths this year in WA state? I would have guessed 6 to 10. 60 is just crazy high.

TheRock11 · 09-04-2012, 11:10 AM

I'm all for this. I witnessed people that I would not want to see on the road pass the MSF course. During the class I was about the only one that could complete all the tests without any trouble, but every person that signed up passed the course.

acura9927 · 09-04-2012, 11:25 AM

You want to know whats funny. You can pass the class get the endorsement and than on a demo day go and test ride a GSXR1000 or R1 when all you have ever tried is a 250 cruiser.

PeteN95 · 09-04-2012, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by Texasl

Any attempt to superimpose the UK/EU model upon the US will run head long into major cultural differences. There is a major disparity between how the overall populations view governmental intrusion into the choices of the average citizen.........
When I catch up to my cruiser riding touring friends they consider the Guzzi to be fairly small.
That culture is not ready for graduated licensing with the incumbent increased training.

We should probably just build more boxes then?

And the graduated licensing, at least in the UK and Australia, are based on HP, not displacement.

Texasl · 09-04-2012, 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by PeteN95

We should probably just build more boxes then?

And the graduated licensing, at least in the UK and Australia, are based on HP, not displacement.

Pete, I don't want to build more boxes. I want to decrease the demand for boxes, but no matter how compelling the argument is for a graduated licensing system may be, until the culture is ready to make that change this remains a wonderful, but unimplementable, theory.

Mandated cultural change will always be the recipient of major opposition, so until the overall riding community is ready to change there can be no effective improvement to how riders are endorsed. Right now we are simply trying to get the average rider to look at the value of continuing education.

How do we crack the code on inspiring the rider who says "I took the MSF course already, so I'm good to go" or the rider who says "I've been riding for years, so I don't need any training" to comprehend the concept of continuous improvement of their riding skills?

Bluuu · 09-04-2012, 12:42 PM

Maybe we should be holding our motorcycle safety courses at a track instead of a parking lot?

Bluuu · 09-04-2012, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by Texasl

Pete, I don't want to build more boxes. I want to decrease the demand for boxes, but no matter how compelling the argument is for a graduated licensing system may be, until the culture is ready to make that change this remains a wonderful, but unimplementable, theory.

Mandated cultural change will always be the recipient of major opposition, so until the overall riding community is ready to change there can be no effective improvement to how riders are endorsed. Right now we are simply trying to get the average rider to look at the value of continuing education.

How do we crack the code on inspiring the rider who says "I took the MSF course already, so I'm good to go" or the rider who says "I've been riding for years, so I don't need any training" to comprehend the concept of continuous improvement of their riding skills?

I'm totally willing to take more training courses and testing. No problem. Can we do it at a track please?

Where one would get push back from me is if they suddenly said I have to go back and ride a 125 for a year, then a 250 for a year (for example) before I can ride my 600 anymore.

ride4zen · 09-04-2012, 01:19 PM

Originally Posted by Bluuu

Maybe we should be holding our motorcycle safety courses at a track instead of a parking lot?

You can do it on a track whenever you want now. To take someone who has never ridden a bike (maybe a bicycle) and put them into any situation/area where road speeds are possible is asking for trouble. We see folks every week who struggle to smoothly control the bikes in the exercises we ride in a parking lot.

The folks who graduate the courses (Beginning courses that is) are told at the end of class "You have just successfully demonstrated that you can ride in a parking lot under semi-adult leadership while never exceeding 20 mph. Perhaps you should consider that as you make your bike and riding enviroment choices". Those who weren't silky smooth are given specific feedback on how to improve.

They are adults and live in America so they have some choices. Many based upon their friends' input so of course they go and buy a Gixxer 6 for the first bike "cuz anything else they'll outgrow too fast"....sheesh.

Bluuu · 09-04-2012, 02:49 PM

I might choose to seek out more instruction and track time. MSF course instructors might warn beginning riders that they are not exactly ready to ride the streets. Neither of those change a very simple fact...

Our licensing system tells new riders they are ready to ride the streets after they have spent a half a day in the classroom and half a day doing 15mph circles in a parking lot. I think that's also asking for trouble.

Seems to me a more reasonable, responsible and realistic approach "might" be something like a day of classroom instruction, a day doing circles/cones/etc in a parking lot, a day in a controlled environment like a track where you could begin getting something closer to street speeds but without all the added things like cars/dogs/kids/etc, and then finally a day on the street somewhere with some light traffic, all to be finished up with some serious testing.

Something like that should be the minimum requirement for endorsement. And THEN follow that up with strong encouragement to continue on to further instruction and studying as the individual's schedule and budget allow.

Originally Posted by ride4zen

You can do it on a track whenever you want now. To take someone who has never ridden a bike (maybe a bicycle) and put them into any situation/area where road speeds are possible is asking for trouble. We see folks every week who struggle to smoothly control the bikes in the exercises we ride in a parking lot.

The folks who graduate the courses (Beginning courses that is) are told at the end of class "You have just successfully demonstrated that you can ride in a parking lot under semi-adult leadership while never exceeding 20 mph. Perhaps you should consider that as you make your bike and riding enviroment choices". Those who weren't silky smooth are given specific feedback on how to improve.

They are adults and live in America so they have some choices. Many based upon their friends' input so of course they go and buy a Gixxer 6 for the first bike "cuz anything else they'll outgrow too fast"....sheesh.

nwmcrider123 · 09-04-2012, 10:24 PM

Originally Posted by Bluuu

Maybe we should be holding our motorcycle safety courses at a track instead of a parking lot?

http://www.advancedstreetskills.com/

Texasl · 09-05-2012, 03:22 AM

Originally Posted by nwmcrider123

http://www.advancedstreetskills.com/

on that class.

taznhell · 09-05-2012, 06:17 AM

It will come to a point in the near future when the state licensing authority decides that whatever they do the problem of fatal crashes persist. At that point be prepared for more stringent guidlines. Oregon requires Team Oregon training prior to be endorsed yet that has not really changed the accident rate in this state. It has been said more drastic measure may be in store. For instance...
1) Any newly endorsed rider will not be endorsed for MC over 500CC (designed to keep you off the 600cc's sport bike)
2) Any Newly endorsed rider will have a probationary period of 120 days any reported accidents endorsement is lost and retrain/restesting must happen. Including Major ticket infractions speeding, stunting etc...

Those are what states are now considering to keep new riders safe long enough to become experienced riders...

When I was 16 in 1982 I was endorsed in Bend, Or I was on a 1982 CX500 custom. I had a regular drivers license for 3 months and decided I wanted to ride so I bought the bike. When I was at the DMV I had to show the tester the Bright/Dim light switch, Horn button, Clutch, Rear and Front Brake controls, Kill switch and that was it I was endorsed. No on bike test, no riding in the parking lot, no team oregon, merely pass the test be endorsed.

I also rode a bicycle, skateboard and roller skates all with a helmet I am in the generation that is lucky to be alive.

dwschultzy · 09-05-2012, 08:58 AM

Originally Posted by ride4zen

You can do it on a track whenever you want now. To take someone who has never ridden a bike (maybe a bicycle) and put them into any situation/area where road speeds are possible is asking for trouble. We see folks every week who struggle to smoothly control the bikes in the exercises we ride in a parking lot.

Yet, you allow them to move forward with riding motorcycles on the street by passing them.....right?

The folks who graduate the courses (Beginning courses that is) are told at the end of class "You have just successfully demonstrated that you can ride in a parking lot under semi-adult leadership while never exceeding 20 mph. Perhaps you should consider that as you make your bike and riding enviroment choices". Those who weren't silky smooth are given specific feedback on how to improve.

Yet, you allow them to move forward with riding motorcycles on the street by passing them.....right?

They are adults and live in America so they have some choices. Many based upon their friends' input so of course they go and buy a Gixxer 6 for the first bike "cuz anything else they'll outgrow too fast"....sheesh.
Yet, you allow them to move forward with riding motorcycles on the street by passing them.....right?

I think it all starts at the top. The DOL and the motorcycle "safety courses" need to be held at higher standards with higher levels of education before allowing people to operate motorcycles.

We also need to set higher standards on who is labeled an "instructer", as well.

Sometimes, actually more than sometimes, but sometimes......you just have to make the decision to tell people that they're not cut out for riding a motorcycle. It's that simple.

The msf course is a joke. I paid for a girl friend to go through the course and they passed her. I was completely shocked when she told me they passed her.
She stalled the bike multiple times. Couldn't navigate the course smoothly, yet they allowed her to get a motorcycle endorsement.
She actually dropped the bike, yet they moved her through the course.


09-03-2012, 06:22 PM	#62
mikeonabike Chicken Strips Joined: Dec 2010 From: puyallup I Ride: 07 sv650s	Most deaths I heard were caused by other cars hitting the riders. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


09-04-2012, 07:37 AM	#67
Tromatic Railer Joined: Apr 2011 From: Portland I Ride: Yamaha Warrior	Whatever you guys come up with to solve the problem, people will resist. How about a time in the seat requirement? Tiered levels of displacement licensing based on years of riding. Your real problem is legislating stupidity, though. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


09-04-2012, 09:01 AM	#68
acura9927 Licensed Joined: Nov 2011 From: Seattle I Ride: 2011 CBR250R	60 deaths this year in WA state? I would have guessed 6 to 10. 60 is just crazy high. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


09-04-2012, 11:10 AM	#69
TheRock11 Chicken Strips Joined: Jan 2011 From: Kirkland, Washington I Ride: '05 R6 Scooty-Puff, Sr.	I'm all for this. I witnessed people that I would not want to see on the road pass the MSF course. During the class I was about the only one that could complete all the tests without any trouble, but every person that signed up passed the course. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


09-04-2012, 11:25 AM	#70
acura9927 Licensed Joined: Nov 2011 From: Seattle I Ride: 2011 CBR250R	You want to know whats funny. You can pass the class get the endorsement and than on a demo day go and test ride a GSXR1000 or R1 when all you have ever tried is a 250 cruiser. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


09-04-2012, 12:42 PM	#73
Bluuu Señor verde Joined: Mar 2011 From: Kirkland I Ride: behind the girls.	Maybe we should be holding our motorcycle safety courses at a track instead of a parking lot? __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


09-05-2012, 06:17 AM	#79
taznhell Shredder Joined: Jul 2008 From: Cornelius, Oregon I Ride: Everyday	It will come to a point in the near future when the state licensing authority decides that whatever they do the problem of fatal crashes persist. At that point be prepared for more stringent guidlines. Oregon requires Team Oregon training prior to be endorsed yet that has not really changed the accident rate in this state. It has been said more drastic measure may be in store. For instance... 1) Any newly endorsed rider will not be endorsed for MC over 500CC (designed to keep you off the 600cc's sport bike) 2) Any Newly endorsed rider will have a probationary period of 120 days any reported accidents endorsement is lost and retrain/restesting must happen. Including Major ticket infractions speeding, stunting etc... Those are what states are now considering to keep new riders safe long enough to become experienced riders... When I was 16 in 1982 I was endorsed in Bend, Or I was on a 1982 CX500 custom. I had a regular drivers license for 3 months and decided I wanted to ride so I bought the bike. When I was at the DMV I had to show the tester the Bright/Dim light switch, Horn button, Clutch, Rear and Front Brake controls, Kill switch and that was it I was endorsed. No on bike test, no riding in the parking lot, no team oregon, merely pass the test be endorsed. I also rode a bicycle, skateboard and roller skates all with a helmet I am in the generation that is lucky to be alive. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter

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