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Old 09-10-2012, 03:27 PM   #81
Peg Dragger
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Joined: Jul 2009
From: Kirkland, Washington
Blog Entries: 1

I Ride: Yamaha V-Star 1100 Custom
“ Quote:
Originally Posted by lilninjaqt View Post
ride your own ride ~ you didn't put anyone in danger.....your good.

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Old 09-10-2012, 03:53 PM   #82
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Joined: Apr 2008
From: Vancouver, WA

I Ride: Versys 650
I use my brakes all the time. I don't feel like breaking anytime soon. Anyways, I am going to go take a break and check my brakes out.

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Old 09-10-2012, 04:01 PM   #83
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Joined: Aug 2008
From: Milwaukie

I Ride: Triumph Tiger 800
Please explain proper braking technique. I have the go fast handle and the go slow stick. I find it annoying that the two are so close together. I get them confused.

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Old 09-10-2012, 04:06 PM   #84
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Joined: Apr 2009
From: Whistler BC
“ Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyndy View Post
So...... I'm not supposed to use my brakes? I'm so confused.
Yes Cyndy... keep using your brakes!

At least until you are 100% comfortable with smooth hard braking, and smooth, light trail braking into corners.

One day there will be an obstacle on the road, or a decreasing radius corner and lots of practice will pay off and enable you to keep it on the road instead of becoming a tree ornament.

My brake light is on very frequently when street riding. Sure the brakes slow me down but they also enable me to steer the bike more quickly, and give me a huge safety margin for those unexpected things that pop up half way through a corner.

For all those that crash on the street, what percentage do you suppose were using their brakes before the corner, were trail braking lightly into the corner and still ran wide and crashed?... I am guessing not very many.

What percentage do you think were not using any brakes, or used some and then got back on the throttle way before they could see even half way through the corner, got surprised by something they had no way in hell of guessing would be there, in a panic stabbed abruptly at the front brake ....and then crashed?

Brakes are good! For you non brakers....Even just using 5 percent of your braking capacity will significantly increase your chances of surviving that next "close call". Don't think brake hard for a short time, think brake light and smooth for a longer time.

The same guy that wrote "The Pace" many years ago, also wrote the article I have pasted below... it's an awesome read on trail braking and how it can and will save your ass one day.



"Hiya FZ1 lovers.
I’ve stewed for two days about the above quote taken from another FZ1OA thread...and finally decided to launch this thread. In past years I would have just rolled my eyes and muttered, “Whatever”…but not anymore. I want to tell you that there are measureable, explainable, repeatable, do-able reasons that make great riders great. And brake usage is at the very tippity-top of these reasons. It’ll save your life, it’ll make you a champion. It will save and grow our sport.
I’ll ask this one favor: Would you open your mind to what I’m about to write, then go out and mess around with it?
To begin: Realize that great motorcycle riding is more subtle in its inputs than most of us imagine. I bet you are moving your hand too quickly with initial throttle and brakes. Moving your right foot too quickly with initial rear brake. The difference between a lap record and a highside is minute, almost-immeasureable differences in throttle and lean angle. The difference between hitting the Camaro in your lane and missing it by a foot is the little things a rider can do with speed control at lean angle. Brakes at lean angle. Brakes in a corner.
Yes, a rider can brake in a corner. Yes. For sure. Guaranteed. I promise. Happens all the time. I do it on every ride, track or street. Yes, a rider can stop in a corner. In fact, any student who rides with the Yamaha Champions Riding School will tell you it’s possible. Complete stop, mid-corner…no drama. Newbies and experts alike.
There are some interesting processes to this sport, mostly revolving around racing. But as I thought about this thread, putting numbers on each thought made more sense because explaining these concepts relies on busting some myths and refining your inputs. Some things must be ingrained…like #1 below.

1)You never, ever, never stab at the brakes. Understand a tire’s grip this way: Front grip is divided between lean angle points and brake points, rear grip is lean angle points and acceleration points, lean angle points and brake points. Realize that the tire will take a great load, but it won’t take a sudden load…and so you practice this smooth loading at every moment in/on every vehicle. If you stab the brakes (um...or throttle...) in your pickup, you berate yourself because you know that the stab, at lean angle on your motorcycle (and bicycle, btw), will be a crash.

2)Let’s examine tire grip. If you’re leaned over at 95% (95 points in my book Sport Riding Techniques and fastersafer.com) of the tires’ available grip, you still have 5% of that grip available for braking (or accelerating). But maybe you only have 3%!!! You find out because you always add braking “points” in a smooth, linear manner. As the front tire reaches its limit, it will squirm and warn you…if that limit is reached in a linear manner.
It’s the grabbing of 30 points that hurts anyone leaned over more than 70 points. If you ride slowly with no lean angle, you will begin to believe that aggressiveness and grabbing the front brake lever is okay…and it is…until you carry more lean angle (or it’s raining, or you’re on a dirt road or your tire’s cold…pick your excuse). Do you have a new rider in your life? Get them thinking of never, ever, never grabbing the brakes. Throttle too…

3)If you STAB the front brake at lean angle, one of two things will happen. If the grip is good, the fork will collapse and the bike will stand up and run wide. If the grip is not-so-good, the front tire will lock and slide. The italicized advice at the beginning was written by a rider who aggressively goes after the front brake lever. His bike always stands up or lowsides. He’s inputting brake force too aggressively, too quickly...he isn't smoothly loading the fork springs or loading the tire. He may not believe this, but the tire will handle the load he wants, but the load must be fed-in more smoothly…and his experience leads to written advice that will hurt/kill other riders. “Never touch the brakes at lean angle?” Wrong. “Never grab the brakes at lean angle?” Right!
But what about the racers on TV who lose the front in the braking zone? Pay attention to when they lose grip. If it’s immediately, it’s because they stabbed the brake at lean angle. If it’s late in the braking zone, it’s because they finally exceeded 100 points of grip deep in the braking zone…if you’re adding lean angle, you’ve got to be “trailing off” the brakes as the tire nears its limit.

4) Radius equals MPH. Realize that speed affects the bike’s radius at a given lean angle. If the corner is tighter than expected, continue to bring your speed down. What’s the best way to bring your speed down? Roll off the throttle and hope you slow down? Or roll off the throttle and squeeze on a little brake? Please don’t answer off the top of your head…answer after you’ve experimented in the real world.
Do this: Ride in a circle in a parking lot at a given lean angle. That’s your radius. Run a circle or two and then slowly sneak on more throttle at the same lean angle and watch what your radius does. Now ride in the circle again, and roll off the throttle…at the same lean angle. You are learning Radius equals MPH. You are learning what throttle and off-throttle does to your radius through steering geometry changes and speed changes. You are learning something on your own, rather than asking for advice on subjects that affect your health and life. (You will also learn why I get so upset when new riders are told to push on the inside bar and pick up the throttle if they get in the corner too fast. Exactly the opposite of what the best riders do. But don’t believe me…try it.)
Let me rant for a moment: Almost every bit of riding advice works when the pace is low and the grip is high. It’s when the corner tightens or the sleet falls or the lap record is within reach…then everything counts.
“Get all your braking done before the turn,” is good riding advice. But what if you don’t? What if the corner goes the other way and is tighter and there’s gravel? It’s then that you don’t need advice, you need riding technique. Theory goes out the window and if you don’t perform the exact action, you will be lying in the dirt, or worse. Know that these techniques are not only understandable, but do-able by you. Yes you! I’m motivated to motivate you due to what I’ve seen working at Freddie’s school and now the Champ school…
I’m telling you this: If you can smoothly, gently pick-up your front brake lever and load the tire, you can brake at any lean angle on and FZ1. Why? Because our footpegs drag before our tires lose grip when things are warm and dry. It might be only 3 points, but missing the bus bumper by a foot is still missing the bumper! If it’s raining, you simply take these same actions and reduce them…you can still mix lean angle and brake pressure, but with considerably less of each. Rainy and cold? Lower still, but still combine-able.

5)So you’re into a right-hand corner and you must stop your bike for whatever reason. You close the throttle and sneak on the brakes lightly, balancing lean angle points against brake points. As you slow down, your radius continues to tighten. You don’t want to run off the inside of the corner, so you take away lean angle. What can you do with the brakes when you take away lean angle? Yes! Squeeze more. Stay with it and you will stop your bike mid-corner completely upright. No drama. But don’t just believe me…go prove it to yourself.

6)Let’s examine the final sentence in the italicized quote. The best thing to do before taking a corner is to grind the thought "I'm going to turn this corner" into your mind.
No, that’s not the best thing. It’s not the worst thing and I’m all for positive thinking, but we all need to see the difference between riding advice and riding techniques. This advice works until you enter a corner truly beyond your mental, physical or mechanical limits. I would change this to: The best thing to do before taking a corner is to scan with your eyes, use your brakes until you’re happy with your speed and direction, sneak open your throttle to maintain your chosen speed and radius, don’t accelerate until you can see your exit and can take away lean angle.
7)Do you think I’m being over-dramatic by claiming this will save our sport? Are we crashing because we’re going too slowly in the corners or too fast? Yes, too fast. What component reduces speed? Brakes. What component calms your brain? Brakes. What component, when massaged skillfully, helps the bike turn? Brakes. If riders are being told that they can’t use the brakes at lean angle, you begin to see the reason for my drama level. When I have a new rider in my life, my third priority is to have them, “Turn into the corner with the brake-light on.”

I’ve said it before: This is the only bike forum I’m a member of. I like it, I like the peeps, I like the info, I love the bike. Could we begin to change the information we pass along regarding brakes and lean angle? Could we control our sport by actually controlling our motorcycles? If we don’t control our sport, someone else will try. Closed throttle, no brakes is “out of the controls”. Get out there and master the brakes.
Thanks, I feel better.

Nick Ienatsch
Yamaha Champions Riding School
Fastersafer.com

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Last edited by dammyneckhurts; 09-10-2012 at 04:30 PM..
 
Old 09-10-2012, 04:09 PM   #85
Race Qualifier
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Joined: Sep 2006
From: The 206

I Ride: ^^^^^^^^
Man come back two pages later. You racer boys really put yourselves pretty high up on a pedestal.

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Old 09-10-2012, 04:26 PM   #86
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Joined: Oct 2011
From: Vancouver, Washington
Blog Entries: 1

I Ride: because it makes me happy.
“ Quote:
Originally Posted by Melbs5150 View Post
Jason Pridmore stated last year when I attended the STAR school that it's not a racetrack, it's a learning track.

You will garner far more instruction from riding on the track than you will at a fucking coffee shop.
I don't disagree Cody, but as Jason stated there are plenty of folks who are either financially unable to make it to the track and/or have time constraints. Some might just be intimidated by the whole idea or never even had the idea of going to the track cross their minds. Hell, I am from the midwest for me going to the track was 1/4 mile runs and riding the twisties I had no clue. I never even realized track days were available until I started reading about them on here, then started asking folks at coffee night about them.

I picked my bike up last April, have put 26k on it since, and I am very grateful that I found this very messed up forum. Why you ask? Well for the simple reason that I have meet a bunch of great guys and gals here in the Couve and even a few from down in Portland (unfortunately for you Cody your on that list, but I won't tell anyone your a good guy) that have taught me volumns. Some of what I have learned came from riding with others but a large amount has come from just going to coffee and bike nights, initially just listening, and eventually asking questions.

That said, a few helpful comments made at a coffee shop can plant that seed in a new riders head and maybe next season they will do a TOR, then move on to some instructional track days. Worst case scenario the free helpful tips may just save them hard life leasons learned from hitting the asphalt (I have had my share and have squid scars to show from them). Plus there is plenty to learn about gear, bikes, gizmos, and bike maintenance.

Well that was a long useless jumble of words . Luckily no one will take the time to read a post this long anyway.

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Last edited by Mrmat25; 09-10-2012 at 04:29 PM..
 
Old 09-10-2012, 04:31 PM   #87
Superbiker
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Joined: Aug 2009
From: Chicagoland

I Ride: 2010 RC8R; 2009 ZX6R; Percheron/Paint (equine variety)
“ Quote:
Originally Posted by dammyneckhurts View Post
Yes Cyndy... keep using your brakes!
You better believe I will!

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Last edited by Cyndy; 09-10-2012 at 06:42 PM..
 
Old 09-10-2012, 04:40 PM   #88
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Joined: May 2008
From: Clarkinsas, WA

I Ride: Whatever's next
“ Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyndy View Post
So...... I'm not supposed to use my brakes? I'm so confused.
I think trail braking on a regular basis should only be used on the track, on the street it can end badly. It's a good skill to have if something unexpected pops up mid corner, but not something that should be used regularly. On roads I know well I like to go through without touching the brakes because it's fun. Sure I could go faster if I charged every corner, grabbed the binders, and powered out but I'm usually well into big ticket territory anyway so going faster will just lead to a free trip in the back of some nice officers car. Maintaining throttle and little brakes gives me a feeling of gliding through the corners, rather that the workout I get at the track, and that's what I'm after on street rides. I'm not focused on keeping the tach between 10k and 14k on street rides either, for the same reason.

“ Quote:
Originally Posted by mfrankpdx View Post
I think the "no brakes" thing was taken a little too literally. The throttle works both ways obviously, and there's no reason to go 100 mph down the straits. Go down the straits at a reasonable speed, and you can usually set your corner speed by simply rolling off the throttle.

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Old 09-10-2012, 04:50 PM   #89
Parts Collector
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Joined: Aug 2008
From: Milwaukie

I Ride: Triumph Tiger 800
“ Quote:
Originally Posted by Stringcheese View Post
I think trail braking on a regular basis should only be used on the track, on the street it can end badly. It's a good skill to have if something unexpected pops up mid corner, but not something that should be used regularly. On roads I know well I like to go through without touching the brakes because it's fun. Sure I could go faster if I charged every corner, grabbed the binders, and powered out but I'm usually well into big ticket territory anyway so going faster will just lead to a free trip in the back of some nice officers car. Maintaining throttle and little brakes gives me a feeling of gliding through the corners, rather that the workout I get at the track, and that's what I'm after on street rides. I'm not focused on keeping the tach between 10k and 14k on street rides either, for the same reason.
this is not the place to sound reasonable, stop that.

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Old 09-10-2012, 04:57 PM   #90
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Joined: Sep 2006
From: The 206

I Ride: ^^^^^^^^
“ Quote:
Originally Posted by dammyneckhurts View Post

Brakes are good! For you non brakers....Even just using 5 percent of your braking capacity will significantly increase your chances of surviving that next "close call". Don't think brake hard for a short time, think brake light and smooth for a longer time.
I don't think this has been an argument of technique more than it has been of philosophy. Obviously you're going to use your brakes when hustling through the twisties. Some folks need more, some need less...and this is dependent on comfort level and ability.

If you're pretty slick and riding at a pace where you're comfortable not using brakes, that doesn't necessarily mean a noob won't be grabbing his at every turn. Similarly, if you're a noob and the only speed you feel is acceptable by the kings of motorcycle forums is to ride with your hair on fire you might be tempted to ride above your ability.

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Old 09-10-2012, 05:02 PM   #91
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Joined: May 2008
From: Clarkinsas, WA

I Ride: Whatever's next
“ Quote:
Originally Posted by dscott3509 View Post
this is not the place to sound reasonable, stop that.
My bad.

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Old 09-10-2012, 05:04 PM   #92
Superbiker
Cyndy's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2009
From: Chicagoland

I Ride: 2010 RC8R; 2009 ZX6R; Percheron/Paint (equine variety)
“ Quote:
Originally Posted by Stringcheese View Post
On roads I know well I like to go through without touching the brakes because it's fun. Sure I could go faster if I charged every corner, grabbed the binders, and powered out but I'm usually well into big ticket territory anyway so going faster will just lead to a free trip in the back of some nice officers car. Maintaining throttle and little brakes gives me a feeling of gliding through the corners, rather that the workout I get at the track, and that's what I'm after on street rides. I'm not focused on keeping the tach between 10k and 14k on street rides either, for the same reason.
Yeah, I hear ya.

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Old 09-10-2012, 05:08 PM   #93
Parts Collector
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Joined: Aug 2008
From: Milwaukie

I Ride: Triumph Tiger 800
Why the need to go as fast as possible? Part of my desire to ride is see scenery without the car surrounding me. I am slow because I choose to enjoy the day and see the world around me.

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Old 09-10-2012, 05:12 PM   #94
Endorsed
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Joined: Mar 2012
From: Spokane, WA

I Ride: 2006 GSX-R 1000
Haven't read all 5 pages of arguing and im sure its been beaten to death, BUT.. Heres mine

Agree completely with the last couple posts. I rarely use the brake in the twisties, and if I do its extremely lightly. I have ran in too hot a couple times, and have had to trail brake, but I try to learn from those mistakes on the street. IMO if you have your bike in the right gear, and arent treating the street like a race track, you should barely have to use the brakes in the twisties. Rolling off the throttle in 2nd or 3rd gear will slow down the bike pretty darn fast. Again unless you're riding the street like a race track.

Oh, no ones EVER had to wait for me either

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Old 09-10-2012, 06:28 PM   #95
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Joined: Apr 2011
From: Seattle, WA

I Ride: for OPRT
“ Quote:
Originally Posted by Stringcheese View Post
I think trail braking on a regular basis should only be used on the track, on the street it can end badly. It's a good skill to have if something unexpected pops up mid corner, but not something that should be used regularly. On roads I know well I like to go through without touching the brakes because it's fun. Sure I could go faster if I charged every corner, grabbed the binders, and powered out but I'm usually well into big ticket territory anyway so going faster will just lead to a free trip in the back of some nice officers car. Maintaining throttle and little brakes gives me a feeling of gliding through the corners, rather that the workout I get at the track, and that's what I'm after on street rides. I'm not focused on keeping the tach between 10k and 14k on street rides either, for the same reason.



Best response to the original question so far imo.

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Old 09-10-2012, 08:39 PM   #96
Permit
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Joined: Aug 2011
From: Vancouver, WA

I Ride: '05 GSX-R 1000
... my best advice for turns, for any level of rider....


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Old 09-10-2012, 09:06 PM   #97
MotoGP Contender
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Joined: Mar 2006
From: spokane, wa

I Ride: 2013 Gasgas 300xc w/lic plate + 1985 RZ350 + 2010 YZ250F +
I want my two dollars!

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Old 09-10-2012, 09:14 PM   #98
MotoGP Contender
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Joined: Mar 2006
From: spokane, wa

I Ride: 2013 Gasgas 300xc w/lic plate + 1985 RZ350 + 2010 YZ250F +
“ Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryfly View Post
Haven't read all 5 pages of arguing and im sure its been beaten to death, BUT.. Heres mine

Agree completely with the last couple posts. I rarely use the brake in the twisties, and if I do its extremely lightly. I have ran in too hot a couple times, and have had to trail brake, but I try to learn from those mistakes on the street. IMO if you have your bike in the right gear, and arent treating the street like a race track, you should barely have to use the brakes in the twisties. Rolling off the throttle in 2nd or 3rd gear will slow down the bike pretty darn fast. Again unless you're riding the street like a race track.

Oh, no ones EVER had to wait for me either
Yup. 2nd gear will do well over a hundred and compression brake plenty, even on a 600. At the last track day here, I ran sessions in the C group, several laps with no brakes at all, not even for the hair pins. Sure, it was 20 seconds off my usual pace, but I was still passing most people out there (who were heating up their tires more than any street ride I've ever been on) and was riding faster than a street pace ought to be.

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Last edited by fastfoodfred; 09-10-2012 at 09:17 PM..
 
Old 09-10-2012, 09:20 PM   #99
Moto2 Contender
Transported's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2006
From: Portland, Oregon
Blog Entries: 1

I Ride: '06 FZ1, '99 R1, '80 Suz GS450S
“ Quote:
Originally Posted by dammyneckhurts View Post
The same guy that wrote "The Pace" many years ago, also wrote the article I have pasted below... it's an awesome read on trail braking and how it can and will save your ass one day.

[snip]

If riders are being told that they cant use the brakes at lean angle, you begin to see the reason for my drama level. When I have a new rider in my life, my third priority is to have them, Turn into the corner with the brake-light on.

Nick Ienatsch
Yamaha Champions Riding School
Fastersafer.com
Love it. Best thing I've read in this thread. Thanks for the link.

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Old 09-10-2012, 10:18 PM   #100
Race Qualifier
Runout's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2006
From: The 206

I Ride: ^^^^^^^^
“ Quote:
Originally Posted by fastfoodfred View Post
Yup. 2nd gear will do well over a hundred and compression brake plenty, even on a 600.
Whatever Fred. You don't list who all your sponsors are and don't circle jerk with the other track guys about how totally awesome you are so that means you suck at riding and don't know what you're talking about.

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