Car equivalents

TJC · 09-10-2012, 11:21 AM

A few days ago I was talking with a friend about bikes vs cars and which are faster or more fun at a track. The conversation quickly turned to how to find equivalent models of cars and bikes. (i.e. Comparing a Ferrari 430 to a Harley Ultra doesn't seem right.)

The original question doesn't bother me much. But the "car equivalent" one does. Since I don't have a job these sorts of questions can consume entire days for me.

Here's my list

Cruiser. Equivalent: Non-traditional "style" cars. (I'm not sure how to describe it.) Things like a Plymouth Prowler or a Chevy HHR. Where style is key but the performance doesn't match the promise.
Tourer (Gold Wing, Harley Ultra). Equivalent: Full size sedan like a Cadillac or Lincoln. This one seems obvious to me. These are machines designed to suck up miles. Where range and passenger comfort are top priorities. Performance and style aren't.
Sport-tourer. Equivalent: GT cars like Corvette or Mustang or BMW M3. They are reasonably comfortable for long distances and they're fun to thrash through the corners.
Sportbike. Equivalent: nothing. At least nothing mass-produced. For all intents and purposes everything (comfort, range, noise) is sacrificed on the alter of performance. Handling and power are paramount.

The last two categories are where my friend and I differed. He wanted to equate a Corvette Z06 or a Ferrari with a sportbike. And to me that's not right, the Corvette isn't as performance-centric. The only car I can think of equating to a sportbike would be an Ariel Atom.

I'm curious what other people think.

KNanthrup · 09-10-2012, 02:31 PM

Hmm this could be fun.

- Cruisers: in my mind are heavy, with lots of torque and engine displacement, but not enough to overcome the weight to be sporty and certainly too much girth to handle or brake rapidly. The engine works hard and gets you moving, but lacks overall speed and the chassis is less than agile. In my mind this is almost like a diesel truck or an SUV. I do like your idea though with reference to "non-traditional" of style over performance effort. Maybe like a Dodge RAM Hemi, Chevy Trailblazer SS, Ford Taurus SHO, etc.

- Tourer: I agree, something like a Cadillac or maybe base to mid level Mercedes, BMW, Lexus sedans, etc. They will go "ok", handle "ok, stop "ok" but above all are comfortable.

- Sport Tourer: I think I can agree with your idea for the most part. We're talking about cars with a performance focus that, if well driven, can hang with poorly driven supercars. Corvette, M3, Porsche Carrera, Viper, etc. The only thing that I personally would differ is drawing a line between "sportcars" and "supercars".

- Sportbike: I think there are cars that fit this category, but we're talking high end here. Zonda, Exige S, GT3, 360/430/458 Challenge, Ariel Atom. These are cars that sacrifice creature comforts for performance. I think this is the most debated and selective group though... for example there are many "supercars" that still compromise performance for luxury or features... ie. Murcielago... too heavy and watered down, Aston Marton... too luxurious, Mercedes AMG's... again too heavy and focused on creature comforts.

mfrankpdx · 09-10-2012, 03:00 PM

Supermoto - Rally car?

West Seattle Cager · 09-10-2012, 03:05 PM

In Vietnam motorcycles, namely Honda "Dreams" are equivalents to the SUV, mini-van and pickup trucks.

mikeames · 09-10-2012, 03:13 PM

Sportbike=Indy Car (but it's tough to buy an Indy car)

Wyckedan · 09-10-2012, 03:27 PM

Cruisers- like a full size truck. Big and heavy, needs a lot of power to go anywhere, turn like shit, stop just as bad. However, like a Harley, I'd take my truck on a road trip over anything else. Lots of storage, wind protection, big ass fuel tank.
Dual Sports- Jeep/Land Cruiser/Range Rover. Big tires, low end torque, plenty of space for GPS, cell phone, camping supplies, bicycle, etc.
Tourer- on the nose with the Cadillac.
Sport Tourer/Hyper Tourer- gotta have a ton of power, not focused too highly on handling. Corvette seems too sport oriented, but fits the description. M3 definitely fits the bill, but also has amazing handling. Maybe the high end sedans like Mercedes or 5 series BMW.
Sportbike - Ferrari Scuderia is a stripped down street legal race car, Porsche GT3 is too, Ariel Atom definitely. Realistically these cars can also out perform a bike on a fairly technical track. One not as technical would be more of a battle.
Supermoto, definitely a 4wd rally car, Impreza WRX STI, Lancer Evo X. Anything that makes you want to slide around intersections drifting

Jims08Z06 · 09-10-2012, 03:31 PM

Tell you what I know, as I have both. On a drag strip my R1 will beat the Z06. Depending on the road course and the skill of the rider and the number of laps, I will run you down on your street sport bike. How do I know this, well a couple years ago, I was in the car just entering my most favorite corners in the middle of tim-buck-to. A group of sport bikes came charging up behind said car. Feeling like WTF do they think, I down shifted and took the car to the limit of the street tires. One brave soul hung with me for a couple turns but made no ground. I then slowed and they went by, and most waved. Look at it this way if we were on the Autobahn, and I stuck my car in 6th and cruised at 180 for let's say 50 miles or more. Do you really believe you would still be with me. It's claimed she will do 200 so now what ya going to do. PS now let's keep in mind we are talking show room stock, if one say's a Moto GP bike will smoke ya, then I say a F1 car will smoke ya back, the key word is stock with the average rider/driver...AJ

ZaethDekar · 09-10-2012, 03:46 PM

Well shit if its stock then my 91 honda will kick my ass

I would love to drive the ariel atom though.

mfrankpdx · 09-10-2012, 04:20 PM

Any Harley Davidson

mulletman · 09-10-2012, 06:00 PM

Originally Posted by Jims08Z06

Tell you what I know, as I have both. On a drag strip my R1 will beat the Z06. Depending on the road course and the skill of the rider and the number of laps, I will run you down on your street sport bike. How do I know this, well a couple years ago, I was in the car just entering my most favorite corners in the middle of tim-buck-to. A group of sport bikes came charging up behind said car. Feeling like WTF do they think, I down shifted and took the car to the limit of the street tires. One brave soul hung with me for a couple turns but made no ground. I then slowed and they went by, and most waved. Look at it this way if we were on the Autobahn, and I stuck my car in 6th and cruised at 180 for let's say 50 miles or more. Do you really believe you would still be with me. It's claimed she will do 200 so now what ya going to do. PS now let's keep in mind we are talking show room stock, if one say's a Moto GP bike will smoke ya, then I say a F1 car will smoke ya back, the key word is stock with the average rider/driver...AJ

The reality is that there are fewer brave souls willing to ride at the limit than there are willing to drive a car close to the limit. The bike will still be faster around the track, given professional people operating both machines. There was a good test between a 458 Italia and an 1198 a while back. Bike spanked the car by over 2 seconds around the track.

king_ogre · 09-10-2012, 07:03 PM

Bike faster than a car at the track? I just don't buy it. So, track record laps should all be bikes?

-R

Wyckedan · 09-10-2012, 07:16 PM

Originally Posted by mulletman

The reality is that there are fewer brave souls willing to ride at the limit than there are willing to drive a car close to the limit. The bike will still be faster around the track, given professional people operating both machines. There was a good test between a 458 Italia and an 1198 a while back. Bike spanked the car by over 2 seconds around the track.

On a tight and technical track, no way. The Pacific bike record is approximately 1:26, the car record is in the low teens. It takes a car set up properly, but the race bikes are set up properly too. Acceleration is the only advantage to a bike

A customer of mine who races alllll sorts of fancy cars told me he watched a guy in a fancy carbon fiber Mercedes race car click off 1:14's all day long at Pacific. He was taking turn 2 at speeds upwards of 120 MPH. A bike just can't compete with that. Even Casey Stoner on his Honda would have a difficult time cutting 12+ seconds off the bike record

Tromatic · 09-10-2012, 07:42 PM

Originally Posted by Wyckedan

Cruisers- like a full size truck. Big and heavy, needs a lot of power to go anywhere, turn like shit, stop just as bad.

Originally Posted by mfrankpdx

Any Harley Davidson

Not an HD. It's no sportbike, but if for sure isn't an HD.

dwschultzy · 09-10-2012, 07:55 PM

Originally Posted by Wyckedan

On a tight and technical track, no way. The Pacific bike record is approximately 1:26, the car record is in the low teens. It takes a car set up properly, but the race bikes are set up properly too. Acceleration is the only advantage to a bike

A customer of mine who races alllll sorts of fancy cars told me he watched a guy in a fancy carbon fiber Mercedes race car click off 1:14's all day long at Pacific. He was taking turn 2 at speeds upwards of 120 MPH. A bike just can't compete with that. Even Casey Stoner on his Honda would have a difficult time cutting 12+ seconds off the bike record

you can't compaire bikes and cars at pacific.....different track lay out for each. You do ride the same track that's in Kent, don't you?

Also, you're wrong about the record.
Motorcycle track record -- 1:23.352, Ross DeLong

edit: would also like to see an official record for a car getting into the low teens? Do you have one?

davidk · 09-10-2012, 07:55 PM

I would see a Lotus 7 next to my Ducati Monster...
Kinda Naked and mostly spark-and-fuel like...
Raw and rather FUN in the twisties...
I5 - No way!!

Tromatic · 09-10-2012, 08:01 PM

Where does an Ariel Atom fall on the scale? Has to be up there.

Jims08Z06 · 09-10-2012, 08:14 PM

Originally Posted by mulletman

The reality is that there are fewer brave souls willing to ride at the limit than there are willing to drive a car close to the limit. The bike will still be faster around the track, given professional people operating both machines. There was a good test between a 458 Italia and an 1198 a while back. Bike spanked the car by over 2 seconds around the track.

Remember we are talking show room stock with your average rider/driver. Even when the pro's push it beyond the limit, they either high side/low side. A few extremely lucky pros manage to keep it going, but remember practice and qualifying at Indy? Some Very Talented riders bit the dust. If my car looses traction it breaks all four at once. Thirty two hundred and change, with about as close as one can get to 50/50 weight distribution. Doesn't over steer or under steer. I just lift the throttle slightly and steer with the throttle. Bikes don't have that option, it's really not a good comparison. Just couldn't keep silent since I have an interest in both...AJ

Lone Rider · 09-10-2012, 08:29 PM

Originally Posted by TJC

The last two categories are where my friend and I differed. He wanted to equate a Corvette Z06 or a Ferrari with a sportbike. And to me that's not right, the Corvette isn't as performance-centric. The only car I can think of equating to a sportbike would be an Ariel Atom.

I'm curious what other people think.

Oh if you got serious dough there is a couple of Ferrari and Lamborghini that surpass sportbikes....,IMO any motorcycle looks puny compared to these bad boys

Because I've had both a ZX14 and a C4, I think one of the hyperbikes equate with the
Vettes nicely.

NoQuarter#121 · 09-10-2012, 08:30 PM

Originally Posted by Wyckedan

Cruisers- like a full size truck. Big and heavy, needs a lot of power to go anywhere, turn like shit, stop just as bad. However, like a Harley, I'd take my truck on a road trip over anything else. Lots of storage, wind protection, big ass fuel tank.
Dual Sports- Jeep/Land Cruiser/Range Rover. Big tires, low end torque, plenty of space for GPS, cell phone, camping supplies, bicycle, etc.
Tourer- on the nose with the Cadillac.
Sport Tourer/Hyper Tourer- gotta have a ton of power, not focused too highly on handling. Corvette seems too sport oriented, but fits the description. M3 definitely fits the bill, but also has amazing handling. Maybe the high end sedans like Mercedes or 5 series BMW.
Sportbike - Ferrari Scuderia is a stripped down street legal race car, Porsche GT3 is too, Ariel Atom definitely. Realistically these cars can also out perform a bike on a fairly technical track. One not as technical would be more of a battle.
Supermoto, definitely a 4wd rally car, Impreza WRX STI, Lancer Evo X. Anything that makes you want to slide around intersections drifting

Originally Posted by Wyckedan

On a tight and technical track, no way. The Pacific bike record is approximately 1:26, the car record is in the low teens. It takes a car set up properly, but the race bikes are set up properly too. Acceleration is the only advantage to a bike

A customer of mine who races alllll sorts of fancy cars told me he watched a guy in a fancy carbon fiber Mercedes race car click off 1:14's all day long at Pacific. He was taking turn 2 at speeds upwards of 120 MPH. A bike just can't compete with that. Even Casey Stoner on his Honda would have a difficult time cutting 12+ seconds off the bike record

This has been done 100 times...

This side of an F1 car, the bike ALWAYS wins, unless its a mickey mouse go cart track.
A good sports car (my knowledgable friend Carmen says the ONLY cars worth a shit on a track are C5 or newer 'Vettes, 4x4 and GT3 Porsches)
Will carry more corner speed, but a well ridden bike gets in and out so much faster its not even funny.

Cars do not do the busstop at Pacific.
That turn alone probably costs the bikes 5-6 seconds.

The Ferrari was beat by a 1198.
A GSXR1000 would have been substantially faster...
Hell a 600 can get around most tracks faster than a 1198.

On a race track its no comparison.
but,

Off road?

well sorted 4x4's will get through shit you would have to drag a motorcycle...

Wyckedan · 09-10-2012, 08:30 PM

Originally Posted by dwschultzy

you can't compaire bikes and cars at pacific.....different track lay out for each. You do ride the same track that's in Kent, don't you?

Also, you're wrong about the record.
Motorcycle track record -- 1:23.352, Ross DeLong

edit: would also like to see an official record for a car getting into the low teens? Do you have one?

Lowest official time is 1:16.477, I was off by a little bit. But even still, with the bus stop in place that's still almost 7 seconds. Could Ross or anyone pick up 7 seconds without the bus stop? Doubt it. And the record car is just a little cart style car. Put a real F1 car out there against a MotoGP bike in a 20 lap race and I bet the car laps the bike.

Edit: the records haven't been updated since 09, who knows what they are now


09-10-2012, 02:31 PM	#2
KNanthrup Shredder Joined: Jul 2008 From: Issaquah, WA I Ride: '09 CBR1000RR. '95 R1100GS	Hmm this could be fun. - Cruisers: in my mind are heavy, with lots of torque and engine displacement, but not enough to overcome the weight to be sporty and certainly too much girth to handle or brake rapidly. The engine works hard and gets you moving, but lacks overall speed and the chassis is less than agile. In my mind this is almost like a diesel truck or an SUV. I do like your idea though with reference to "non-traditional" of style over performance effort. Maybe like a Dodge RAM Hemi, Chevy Trailblazer SS, Ford Taurus SHO, etc. - Tourer: I agree, something like a Cadillac or maybe base to mid level Mercedes, BMW, Lexus sedans, etc. They will go "ok", handle "ok, stop "ok" but above all are comfortable. - Sport Tourer: I think I can agree with your idea for the most part. We're talking about cars with a performance focus that, if well driven, can hang with poorly driven supercars. Corvette, M3, Porsche Carrera, Viper, etc. The only thing that I personally would differ is drawing a line between "sportcars" and "supercars". - Sportbike: I think there are cars that fit this category, but we're talking high end here. Zonda, Exige S, GT3, 360/430/458 Challenge, Ariel Atom. These are cars that sacrifice creature comforts for performance. I think this is the most debated and selective group though... for example there are many "supercars" that still compromise performance for luxury or features... ie. Murcielago... too heavy and watered down, Aston Marton... too luxurious, Mercedes AMG's... again too heavy and focused on creature comforts. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


09-10-2012, 03:00 PM	#3
mfrankpdx Retired Joined: Jul 2007 From: Washington DC I Ride: Speed Triple	Supermoto - Rally car? __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


09-10-2012, 03:05 PM	#4
West Seattle Cager Endorsed Joined: Jun 2011 From: Seattle, WA I Ride: Suzuki Bandit 1200S	In Vietnam motorcycles, namely Honda "Dreams" are equivalents to the SUV, mini-van and pickup trucks. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


09-10-2012, 03:13 PM	#5
mikeames Endorsed Joined: Jan 2011 From: Vancouver, WA I Ride: '82 Yamaha XJ1100J	Sportbike=Indy Car (but it's tough to buy an Indy car) __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


09-10-2012, 03:27 PM	#6
Wyckedan Streetfighter Joined: Feb 2010 From: Seattle, Wa I Ride: An 06 R6 with OPRT	Cruisers- like a full size truck. Big and heavy, needs a lot of power to go anywhere, turn like shit, stop just as bad. However, like a Harley, I'd take my truck on a road trip over anything else. Lots of storage, wind protection, big ass fuel tank. Dual Sports- Jeep/Land Cruiser/Range Rover. Big tires, low end torque, plenty of space for GPS, cell phone, camping supplies, bicycle, etc. Tourer- on the nose with the Cadillac. Sport Tourer/Hyper Tourer- gotta have a ton of power, not focused too highly on handling. Corvette seems too sport oriented, but fits the description. M3 definitely fits the bill, but also has amazing handling. Maybe the high end sedans like Mercedes or 5 series BMW. Sportbike - Ferrari Scuderia is a stripped down street legal race car, Porsche GT3 is too, Ariel Atom definitely. Realistically these cars can also out perform a bike on a fairly technical track. One not as technical would be more of a battle. Supermoto, definitely a 4wd rally car, Impreza WRX STI, Lancer Evo X. Anything that makes you want to slide around intersections drifting __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


09-10-2012, 11:21 AM	#1
TJC Endorsed Joined: Jun 2009 From: Redmond, WA I Ride: two bikes in the morning. I ride two bikes at night. I ride two bikes in the afternoon cuz it makes me feel alright.	Car equivalents A few days ago I was talking with a friend about bikes vs cars and which are faster or more fun at a track. The conversation quickly turned to how to find equivalent models of cars and bikes. (i.e. Comparing a Ferrari 430 to a Harley Ultra doesn't seem right.) The original question doesn't bother me much. But the "car equivalent" one does. Since I don't have a job these sorts of questions can consume entire days for me. Here's my list Cruiser. Equivalent: Non-traditional "style" cars. (I'm not sure how to describe it.) Things like a Plymouth Prowler or a Chevy HHR. Where style is key but the performance doesn't match the promise. Tourer (Gold Wing, Harley Ultra). Equivalent: Full size sedan like a Cadillac or Lincoln. This one seems obvious to me. These are machines designed to suck up miles. Where range and passenger comfort are top priorities. Performance and style aren't. Sport-tourer. Equivalent: GT cars like Corvette or Mustang or BMW M3. They are reasonably comfortable for long distances and they're fun to thrash through the corners. Sportbike. Equivalent: nothing. At least nothing mass-produced. For all intents and purposes everything (comfort, range, noise) is sacrificed on the alter of performance. Handling and power are paramount. The last two categories are where my friend and I differed. He wanted to equate a Corvette Z06 or a Ferrari with a sportbike. And to me that's not right, the Corvette isn't as performance-centric. The only car I can think of equating to a sportbike would be an Ariel Atom. I'm curious what other people think. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


09-10-2012, 03:31 PM	#7
Jims08Z06 Bat Crazed Joined: May 2009 From: WA I Ride: 08, R1	Tell you what I know, as I have both. On a drag strip my R1 will beat the Z06. Depending on the road course and the skill of the rider and the number of laps, I will run you down on your street sport bike. How do I know this, well a couple years ago, I was in the car just entering my most favorite corners in the middle of tim-buck-to. A group of sport bikes came charging up behind said car. Feeling like WTF do they think, I down shifted and took the car to the limit of the street tires. One brave soul hung with me for a couple turns but made no ground. I then slowed and they went by, and most waved. Look at it this way if we were on the Autobahn, and I stuck my car in 6th and cruised at 180 for let's say 50 miles or more. Do you really believe you would still be with me. It's claimed she will do 200 so now what ya going to do. PS now let's keep in mind we are talking show room stock, if one say's a Moto GP bike will smoke ya, then I say a F1 car will smoke ya back, the key word is stock with the average rider/driver...AJ __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


09-10-2012, 03:46 PM	#8
ZaethDekar Licensed Joined: Apr 2008 From: Vancouver, WA I Ride: Versys 650	Well shit if its stock then my 91 honda will kick my ass I would love to drive the ariel atom though. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


09-10-2012, 04:20 PM	#9
mfrankpdx Retired Joined: Jul 2007 From: Washington DC I Ride: Speed Triple	Any Harley Davidson __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


09-10-2012, 07:03 PM	#11
king_ogre Pit Crew Joined: Jul 2007 From: Or	Bike faster than a car at the track? I just don't buy it. So, track record laps should all be bikes? -R __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


09-10-2012, 07:55 PM	#15
davidk Railer Joined: Mar 2010 From: Bainbridge Island, WA I Ride: 1995 RED Ducati 900 Monster	I would see a Lotus 7 next to my Ducati Monster... Kinda Naked and mostly spark-and-fuel like... Raw and rather FUN in the twisties... I5 - No way!! __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


09-10-2012, 08:01 PM	#16
Tromatic Railer Joined: Apr 2011 From: Portland I Ride: Yamaha Warrior	Where does an Ariel Atom fall on the scale? Has to be up there. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter

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