Geoff4RFC

The clutch should be the LEAST of your worries where brakes are concerned.

Are you in special ed???

Continuous compression (engine) braking practices, take their toll on pistons, pistion rings and cylinder walls. I think what TruWrecks was TRYING to say is, it's easier and cheaper to replace brake pads than to re-ring your engine.

To successfully negotiate a "simple" street ride, a rider must do better than having utmost concentration, needing to anticipate the unseen at every corner/intersection/side street etc, etc.

Your brain should be utterly exhausted from a day of riding, so what am I saying? Concentrate on using your brakes to slow and stop, not your engine.

Blipping the throttle while downshifting is recommended as you slow but not too much at once, you want your engine speed to match your wheel speed, less is more. Take care of your engine and it will take care of you.

As far as the clutch goes, smoothness is key, I race an entire season on one clutch (two premier classes) and have no failures. I don't see why you can't do the same on the street.

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Transported

Darryl Cannon of Killboy.com says he's probably seen and photographed more crashes of street riders than anyone. In the June Motorcyclist, he gives his top 10 ways not to crash. His fourth point is to "forget your rear brake."

His first three points are: 1) to learn the road, 2) stay on your side, and 3) leave room for jackasses who don't stay on their side.

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thedrew

Unless I have a very false sense of how things work (which could be...), engine braking is functionally the same as the rear brake, both are slowing the bike from the rear tire, weather it be the via the chain and sprockets or the pad on the rotor, both apply strictly to the rear wheel.


I fail to see how only engine braking doesn't upset the chassis any more than the rear brake?

Prepping for a corner its the same drill, all 3 brakes for desired entry speed, look where I want to go, lean it over and roll the throttle to keep the suspension set all the way through.

I use all 3, all the time, every time I stop.

Even though this is a braking thread, your entry/exit line & speed is just as crucial to staying safe.

I generally aim for a delayed apex, I've found that if I'm going faster than i should, its usually easier to lean the bike over more than to try and slow mid-corner.

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fastfoodfred

If you are riding behind me (Subliminal message-you are slow), and you see my brake light come on, you just caught me making a mistake or I am riding faster than I should. I'm not worried about maintenance costs or brake pad costs, or clutch costs, I'm here to have fun and it has a price-hopefully that does not include E.R. visits.

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Geoff4RFC

Yeah, brakes are highly overrated anyway, just disconnect your brake lines and be done with it.

Gee, with such an apparent disposable income as yours, how 'bout sponsoring a racer who is concerned with maintenance costs.

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fastfoodfred

What I'm trying to say is that my bike is a tool. When it's worn, I will fix or replace it. That's just the way it is. I was at SRP and somewhat disapointed myself by only doing 1:45's after being there for 1/2 the day, I've gone significantly faster before. Then I realized, I wasn't hardly braking at all. I guess that I should try some of that sometime. Then you are saying all I will need to buy is rotors and brake pads? No, it will add the the rest of the stuff that needs to also be replaced. I would guess that my motor will last for 60,000 miles or better the current way that I'm riding.

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Spec

While understanding you're a racer yourself, I myself have learned this technique from many hours of both following other racers, talking with guys who run OMRRA and WMRRA, and reading in multiple different magazines and books. I did not ever state I don't use my brakes, so your witty comment doesnt apply. I stated that my FIRST step was engine braking. My SECOND step is the front brake. Engine braking allows your bike to lose speed while maintaining stability as well as placing you in the correct RPM for the corner.

We may be battling simply two ways of braking. If you watch the professional racers much, you'll notice they both have different forms of entering a corner. While watching Moto GP (and their handy throttly/braking display), one may notice some riders will enter turn one slamming on the brakes to decrease speed before barreling into the corner. At the same time, they may notice other riders (Valentino Rossi included) who use significantly less braking before the corner, yet are still entering the corner at relatively similar speeds. How is this happening? One rider is using as much room as he can to maintain his straightaway speed and then grabbing the brakes hard to scrub it off. The other rider is setting himself up a bit prematurely with engine braking and while decreasing his speed to match the entry of the other rider, he is hardly using his brakes at all.

My riding has become more controlled and accurate after switching from the technique you're stating to the technique I am currently using. Again, it's not that I'm not using my brakes, I just sound to be using them a bit less than you. Different styles, both of which are fine, and both of which are used on the professional level.

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Geoff4RFC

Okay, check it out Fast Freddie, since you've spent time on the track, here's a perfect example (besides premature engine wear) of why not to rely on engine braking.

Back in the day, we used to downshift to 3rd gear for t-1 at PIR. Depending on the weekend, sometimes Sully and I would go head to head for a bit.

Kieth Pinkstaff enlightened me to only downshifting twice instead of 3 times for t-1 for this reason: by reducing the compression brake, you carry more speed through the corner.

We would shift into 3rd so our drive out of t-2 would be "on", but by saving the shift to 3rd until the top of t-2, you carried faster speed through t-1 and still had drive out of t-2.

I had video at one time (Sully has seen it) where Mike led me into t-1 with about a 6-7 bike length, he'd shift to 3rd, I'd shift to 4th. We'd be neck and neck by the exit of two, I even put a nice stuff on him into t-3 one lap, this went on lap after lap. The video showed all the time was made up through t-1, why, less compression braking.

Engine braking on the street is one thing, but on the track, you could very well be slowing yourself down unnecessarily.

If you check your pads routinely and replace them when you should, rotors should never be an issue.

I hope this illustration helps, I'll be at SRP for the July 7-8 event, hope to see you there.

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TruWrecks

You're assuming too much. I use brakes far more than the clutch for slowing. I use them both if I'm riding corners aggressively.

As far as re-ringing the engine, yes it's expensive.

Obviously I've learned nothing in 24 years of riding.

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Geoff4RFC

I got'cha, I'm definitely from the school that teaches, use brakes first for slowing instead of the engine.

I try not to assume too much, especially where your 24 years of knowledge is concerned.

The fact is, I've never had a clutch go bad due to breaking, am I missing something here?

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Spec

This could be another discretion. Thanks for pointing that out.

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Twisties4me

Hey all. I'm a little confused about the blip the throttle technique. Let me outline a basic shift and where does the blip come in?

A. Start braking and/or slowing down
B. Pull - in the clutch
C. Change Gears
D. Release the clutch

So where does the blip come in ? Before the clutch, while holding the clutch and changing gears, while releasing the clutch?

Between "C and D" might be the easiest way to reply, or if you want to give the whole run down. Cause riding two-up on my dirtbike, Del showed me that your supposed to do that, but I didn't really understand when.

-Thanks.

lol, this is ezekiel7 and i'm on his computer. So I accidentally posted on his account. Sorry for the mistake.

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Spec

between c and d, once you've changed gears you want to blip that extra rev into the engine before releasing the clutch. It synchronizes your engine speeds.

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Geoff4RFC

Blip while doing C.

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TruWrecks

That was more my point, I guess it was poorly worded.

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