PNW Riders

Shrek X · 07-02-2009, 01:07 AM

Originally Posted by Sentor

You haven't met me. There's nothing left to say on this issue other than you're more than welcome to. I'm not a guy in seattle, or "a few here".

It's not an authority or me wanting to teach someone, it's them riding their comfort level and not feeling like they need to keep up. I can only lead a horse to water, not make it drink.

I have no authority, I just want to have fun without accidents. I'm not here to teach anyone anything other than what they want to learn of the following:

a) a basic understanding of group rides and organization
b) how to deal with confrontation (yes, I have been professionally trained with this.)

You have some good points to your argument, but they're clouded by personal feelings and emotions.

I think you misunderstood my statement... when I say "I have met them" thats not a dismissive statement, thats a fact, I met them, I hang out with them, I like them, I usta be one of them, a bunch of my friends are them.. is more what I was saying, so I dont have animosity toward sport bike riders.. although I do understand how you could see my comments as being "challenging"... which I suppose they are

and when I say I meet about anyone, thats true, as long as they buy me a beer after I buy them one

pv2 · 07-02-2009, 01:19 AM

My humble thoughts:

I feel the most experienced people should be either leading or sweeping.

I don't want to see anyone who has questionable street / track skills sweeping.

If people break off into sub groups then control/ accountability start getting tested. If you don't have a leader and sweeper who are experienced and technically proficient riders the probability for mishaps increases.

Do we have examples of this?

Many reasons for having a qualified sweeper, One of the reasons for us going out is to improve.

If someone is going to do questionable riding technique especially when they think they are doing OK - where no one can see them in swiper mode, then that is counter productive and that person may be the one who winds up going down and at the very least they don't improve - the only improve doing bad habits unknowingly.

Also I'd suggest a sweeper needs to be helping people in front of them to improve.

Other issue:
I also don't like the idea of bike riders riding too slow or stopping on roadside waiting for people who are too slow.

This is where the stoppers are most vulnerable to being hit by cagers/ trucks unless they are on an area with plenty of shoulder etc.

One of many possible ways around:
If someone is going to stay slow even after assistance, then they should stay on Newbie Rides (where everybody is too slow) till they can pick it up and show good technique.

Bicycle Riders have A, B, C level rides requiring greater stamina/ and technical proficiency, I suggest we consider this as a possible rating system.
THe prob here is a person who is a C level on a bike can't keep up and will get dropped one way or the other.
Here on motorbikes, twist the wrist and .......

Agreed meetings should happen and I'd like to be a part of it; however, again I am a vocal teammate to stir things a bit and hash things out; however, I yeild to people that I consider as having more time here and are known very good riders. HOpefully good teachers too.

Agreed this - in forum mode - is not a great place to hash things out, much better communication occurs where we can face to face and get cross operational definitions out of the way.

I do this all the time in Engineering Meetings discussing Projects spanning States and Millions of dollars involved.

Emails and forums are great for alerting people and for repeating points for clarification but ultimately well thoughtout, efficient meetings are where things happen.

Funny even the big companies don't seem to understand this very salient point.

So I will be fine to be a part of any meeting we are going to have.

But I have again place emphesis on having experienced riders on point!

It may be a good idea to have a PTT (PUSH TO TALK) or something VA (voice activated and always on) intercom between the point riders / Lead-> Sweeper.

The last ride I was on / a week ago:
Black Sabatical was in Lead - did a very responsible job - I was in sweep or close to it most of the time - Soil was in Sweep and also assisting one of our Newbies.

No issues, all ran smooth, a model ride.

blater blather! thank you very much,

Oh I like Sentor taking up the time to Put up a very nice Outline, I am sure he is looking to modifiy it as part of a Living Document.
THere is no need to re-invent the wheel here for reasons which should be very apparent to all.

A lot of statements coming from people that are looking to contribute, I'd suggest you put your ideas in a coherent form starting with Sentors form and adding/ modifiying / deleating and come to the meeting.

the 4th of July comes, let us make ourselves a Bill of Rides!

pv2

Mr. P · 07-02-2009, 02:00 AM

Originally Posted by mfrankpdx

Having never ridden a sport bike, you will never be able to understand the vast difference in sport riding skill one rider can have over another.

Lynk · 07-02-2009, 02:54 AM

This thread is awesome! Shrek, I love ya, in the most manly of ways. It's absolutely entertaining to read some of the assumptions that are playing out here, just because you're riding a "cruiser."

Frank and Sentor, I have to side with Shrek on this one. I've gotten one over-riding theme out of this thread: "A bunch of guys want to get together to discuss how to ride faster than their group, without the n00bs ending up in the hospital, because they tried to follow us, the leaders." It just doesn't work like that.

Frank, you're the only one who was around on these forums when I was leading a bunch of rides. When it came down to it, the riders with radios took control spots. That's all there was to it! Generally, I would lead the fast group, on my "cruiser." Then, someone with a radio would lead the slow group, with another radio at sweep. I always published the route ahead of time, or distributed it to the participants.

The rules were simple. If you wanted to ride faster than me, find a safe place to pass, and you're on your own until we catch up. As the front-man, I stayed in constant communication with the leader of the slow group. The slow group leader maintained communication with the sweep. If the lifeline was ever broken, we'd slow down, or double-back. Stopping points were usually pre-defined, although some impromptu was always allowed.

Do you see the theme? Go by what GoogleMaps says for travel time, and double it. You're all out there to have fun, so there shouldn't be any worry of losing the group. On the other hand, I have participated in group rides before where I was forced to ride my "cruiser" in triple-digits for ten minutes or more, because everyone took off from a gas station before I had gotten my helmet and gloves put back on. That's not the recipie for a fun day.

Frank, riding a cruiser is no different than riding a sportbike; they're both bikes, which inherently begin and end a turn through countersteer. Yeah, you've gotta muscle the bigger bike around at times to overcome increased rake and CG. There are a bunch of people out there on big bikes who like to push it through the corners. One way or another, they ended up on bigger bikes that are less friendly about tip-in. So what?! We're all riders.

ddonacazx12 · 07-02-2009, 03:24 AM

Originally Posted by Sentor

a) a basic understanding of group rides and organization
...
You have some good points to your argument, but they're clouded by personal feelings and emotions.

PM sent

and

Originally Posted by Shrek X

but even more interesting around here, are the people who hold themselves up as "mentors".

Oh yes, heaven forbid we should try to HELP the new people in our sport / hobby.

I mean afterall, we wouldn't want to deprive them of the experience of repeating our mistakes of the last 20+ years... just to learn what we could have shown them in a year or two's worth of riding.

Originally Posted by mfrankpdx

Why don't you clue me in then?

Mark, don't encourage him...

dragracer1951 · 07-02-2009, 04:55 AM

I'll give you my thoughts
I've lead one or two rides...
The idea of a get together for leads and sweeps is a good idea. Do that...
It may be a bit of a knee jerk reaction to an unfortunate accident. Recognize that.
I've slowed down on riding in larger group rides. My 50th Aniv R1 was totaled last Nov when a noob rear ended me on a ride with over 30 people. Slow, mellow putt...
Now I mostly ride with a group of similarly skilled riders that I know won't do something silly.
From what I understand, the incident was caused by the group splitting, adn the leaders not aware of everyones actions. Had they been more aware, people would have known sooner that one of the riders was not there.
Rides are an orginizational nightmare...
But the idea of an organized effort to get leads adn ride organizers on the same page is a good one. There are basics that ought to happen every ride. Getting people at least THINKING about how to enforce rules is a good thing.
I completely agree with whoever it was that brought up the differences in riding levels of noobs and vets. Most people aren't going to volunteer that they feel uncomfortable with the pace untill it's maybe too late...
I don't know what can really be done to make sure what HAS happened never happens again, but just by looking at it and trying to improve is a good thing.

Shrek X · 07-02-2009, 06:44 AM

Originally Posted by ddonacazx12

PM sent

and

Oh yes, heaven forbid we should try to HELP the new people in our sport / hobby.

I mean afterall, we wouldn't want to deprive them of the experience of repeating our mistakes of the last 20+ years... just to learn what we could have shown them in a year or two's worth of riding.

Mark, don't encourage him...

thats right, I should just shut up because I am not going to sit back and just go along.

If your qualified as an instructor, then please, lead the way... if your just a d00d with seat time or someone who was anointed somehow, then I question if you should be a mentor / instructor. I know some who call themselves mentors, and they shouldn't be. Hell, I have 20+ years of seat time, maybe I should start calling myself a mentor

as for my riding experience, I had written a little thing encapsulating that, but thats not the topic is it. suffice it to say I was very fast not to long ago

Transported · 07-02-2009, 06:46 AM

Originally Posted by 307T

That's a pretty creative and poetic way of describing some of these rides. I think Shrek's point is that it is often more about rider to rider comparison than it is about understanding a machine's capabilities.

[Damn it, I really was going to stay the fock out of this

]

Thanks. I try.

Joy describes perfectly how I feel when I'm riding my sportbike on Oregon's spectacular roads. Rider-to-rider competition is not an issue, except for a few of my trusted friends who like to provoke a bit (we never approach racing on the roads, though it may look like it to the uninitiated).

When I pass someone to get to the front of our group, I do it not to race someone or to show I'm faster, but to find a position in the group where I feel I can go at my own pace through the upcoming twisties without having to go the pace of the person in front of me. This avoids the rubber-band effect I was talking about earlier.

And, believe me, there is very little ego involved in mentoring someone. No more ego than a school teacher might feel being gratified that they have something worthy to pass on to a new generation.

A mentor ride or a mentoring role is a big responsibility. It is so much more relaxing and exciting to just do my own ride or to go on a small, spirited group ride than to spend the day observing others, analyzing, and demonstrating good riding technique. The small payback of someone saying in return, "Gee, those tips really helped. Thanks for taking the time to do this!" makes it all worthwhile.

lena · 07-02-2009, 08:14 AM

Go have at it here. All off-topic posts moved from this thread:
Group Ride Leaders Meeting - Planning Process

lena · 07-02-2009, 08:17 AM

This thread is specifically for setting up a ride leading meeting, all posts discussing ride leading moved to here:
http://pnwriders.com/portland-region...e-leading.html
Please keep it on topic.

Soil · 07-02-2009, 08:26 AM

Originally Posted by Shrek X

as I say, the problem isnt the riders or the leaders, its the fact that you all turn it into a race.

problem here isnt the ride, its how you ride. gonna treat it like its a race, your gonna crash, especially you spark plugs that keep takin the n00bs back in the hills trying to show how good you are and getting all fuzzy you showed someone with 4 months seat time you were faster in some corner

Shrek -

PLEASE stop using absolutes
(all respect and best regards to your opinion tho - and I understand that rides you have been on MAY have seemed that folks were doing that-can't question that at all) - but

'all turn it into a race' - NOT true at all...

noobs in the hills is also an effective method to improve skills (when done correctly)...

Been 'off forum' for a couple days - and WOW! did I miss something, or WHAT?!

MichelinMan · 07-02-2009, 08:29 AM

Originally Posted by lena

Go have at it here. All off-topic posts moved from this thread:
Group Ride Leaders Meeting - Planning Process

I was reading through that thread, going

, and realize this is why this thread no longer makes sense. There's too many posts missing.

Shrek X · 07-02-2009, 08:45 AM

Originally Posted by MichelinMan

I was reading through that thread, going

, and realize this is why this thread no longer makes sense. There's too many posts missing.

say what?

that kinda pisses me off? I cant post in the Portland region?! why is my opinion not being allowed!

EDIT: no, thinking about it, this really pisses me off! So presumptious to think you edit threads to your liking?!

Shrek X · 07-02-2009, 08:46 AM

your right, that is the excetpion, not the rule... sorry

Originally Posted by Soil

Shrek -

PLEASE stop using absolutes
(all respect and best regards to your opinion tho - and I understand that rides you have been on MAY have seemed that folks were doing that-can't question that at all) - but

'all turn it into a race' - NOT true at all...

noobs in the hills is also an effective method to improve skills (when done correctly)...

Been 'off forum' for a couple days - and WOW! did I miss something, or WHAT?!

Shrek X · 07-02-2009, 08:48 AM

I see, so I cant comment on the Portland threads. nice, open, great

Soil · 07-02-2009, 09:02 AM

Shrek - I have NO issues with YOU, just using your questions because they are VERY GOOD questions and I agree with your mentality that I am seeing in this thread - please don't feel 'affronted' or that I am 'talking back at' you, just a great opportunity to answer those questions...

Originally Posted by Shrek X

In the n00b rides, who is teaching?
me - sometimes: Clay Green (also prefer the term 'sharing' to 'teaching' - sharing stuff I have learned and others have found useful...

what are they teaching?

#1 - survival reaction definition, indications, causes, and what to do to prevent ANY of them from happening

#2 - throttle rule #1 (slowly roll on in a turn) and why

#3 - the PROPER group ride mentality 'ride your own ride' - BUT I am finding and learning that VERY VERY few people REALLY understand that even after many discussions...

#4 - responsibility on a group ride is for #1 yourself - don't do anything stupid and #2 - the guy in your mirror!!!!

#5 - the STREET is NOT the place to find a limit. discuss many of the hazards that are typically seen on a normal street ride (obviously can't hit everything)... but try to instill an understanding of how risky simply tossing a leg over a bike really is.

and what are the qualifications for that?

over a decade of professional training experience to adults: US Navy Nuclear Reactor Operator Trainer; Semiconductor Manufacturer trainer; Intel trainer; Add to that the 8 plus years on a bike... well over a dozen different track and other professional motorcycle course attendances - regular at the SF Bay Doc Wong clinic... I have also found that I have a unique ability in that I can take a technical document (Twist II, etc) and convert that into an effective presentation and discussion with mature adults that can actually convey to those others things they 'don't get' in reading the same material (in a positive way mostly)

I have NEVER suggested I can help someone go 'faster' - my thoughts are that a confident rider is a safer rider in that if you are not STRESSING about things, then you are more able to react the the CRAP that the street throws at you - hence, you are a safer rider... (SAFER and SMOOTHER are the goals... not necessarily 'faster')

from what I hear it is turning into quite an ego trip, ego and a fast bike usually ends bad.

My current dilemma is centered around those egos... I have been asking a LOT of people this question - and I have not found any solid, good answers:

HOW do we convince people that the ONE thing that will kill them is their ego? [breaking it down: on a ride and you think either "I need to go faster so 'they' won't think less of me" ... OR "THAT guy shouldn't be faster than me"... OR even: "I'm going to slow and holding the group up"]

HOW do you tell someone that is their ego - that they are worried about what someone else is thinking, THAT leads to actions - those actions may be 'speeding up' a little... and that can lead to bad things.

HOW do 'we' get people 'over' themselves?

KEY thing to not miss - even if they are thinking about others in a 'caring' way ("I'm going to slow and bothering other people" - obviously thinking about others in a 'helpful' way)... that is still not a desired thought.

[please note: I am not even including in this discussion those (typically) young gentlemen that actually BELIEVE they should be rippin' through these roads and living on the hairy edge - pretty sure nobody here is even considering THOSE guys worth wasting the time discussing this much - except in how they react in a group... and my answer is becoming easier and easier in that situation - I TELL THEM TO EITHER SLOW THE FUCK DOWN - OR LEAVE] (as respectfully as I can)...

I am in for a meeting and formal discussion / presentation if I am available - obviously.

(I also believe I am a very qualified person to find and help 'us' stay focused on as FEW points as possible to make said gathering as effective as possible)

you all (hopefully) know I got nothing but love for everybody!

)

one more little detail - a couple people have mentioned recently in various situations that I am 'fast'... I assure you - the fast guys don't think I'm fast... and I don't think I'm fast - the ONLY thing I have any ego about is something that I can control: my chain! I feel that my chain is one of the cleanest in the PNW and I work to keep it that way.

Transported · 07-02-2009, 09:05 AM

Rather than lock the thread for straying off topic, Lena decided to keep the ride-leading thread pure to its intent by separating out. Probably a good thing, as the ride-leader meeting is a topic that needs to be addressed in its own right.

She doesn't want good intentions to go astray, as they so often do in this free-for-all.

Transported · 07-02-2009, 09:06 AM

Clay, use something else besides that green.

Soil · 07-02-2009, 09:10 AM

Originally Posted by Sentor

If I want to ride fast, I ride fast and accept the consequences. I do everything I can not to put anyone else at risk, but my bike and my body are mine.

I don't compete with anyone but myself, and my abilities and I know when to slow it down and I'm going too fast.

If you're risk adverse, that's your own choice, I like taking the risk, and I don't bitch when sh!t doesn't go my way.

The goal here is to get people to ride within their comfort level, and to help them learn that they don't need to compete with anyone. Your comments seem biased to sportbike riders. Come meet with me and some of the people I normally ride with, and you'll start to see that we're not competitive beyond a little smack-talk in a coffee shop.

The challenge is this:

how to explain to people (young guys mostly) that just because you can do something it doesn't mean that they (even tho they are more physically fit, better looking, stronger, younger, faster reflexes, smarter, cuter, have a bigger penis... whatever) CAN DO IT TOO....

EGO is the problem

part of the 'zen' of bike riding is realizing that even tho YOU may think you are in control of things - you are NOT... ability to twist a wrist, grab the brake and counter steer means absolutely NOTHING if a mack truck is barreling toward you... and you can NOT control that. (wait - the smart ass is gonna say 'if I'm good enough I can dodge it... OK - FINE... a freakin' airplane can fall outta the sky and smash your dumb ass then - focus on the point man, the point!

)

point is - the ego is killing folks...

Shrek X · 07-02-2009, 09:11 AM

Originally Posted by Transported

Rather than lock the thread for straying off topic, Lena decided to keep the ride-leading thread pure to its intent by separating out. Probably a good thing, as the ride-leader meeting is a topic that needs to be addressed in its own right.

She doesn't want good intentions to go astray, as they so often do in this free-for-all.

it aint right to rip out my posts like that, aint right at all, im pissed (and that’s hard to do) I don’t like being stifled, and I don’t like being censored. This is way out of line for you, her or anyone to determine what can or cant be said here (baring agregious examples). My comments were right in line with the OP

Maybe you should title a threat "cool kids", Ill stay out of that one and you all can play

Shrek X · 07-02-2009, 09:14 AM

Originally Posted by Soil

Shrek - I have NO issues with YOU, just using your questions because they are VERY GOOD questions and I agree with your mentality that I am seeing in this thread - please don't feel 'affronted' or that I am 'talking back at' you, just a great opportunity to answer those questions...

I ask the questions to bring discussion and enjoy solid resoponces like yours.. agree with what I think or not... good post.

Soil · 07-02-2009, 09:19 AM

Originally Posted by Shrek X

I have 20+ years of seat time, maybe I should start calling myself a mentor

like it or not - someone, sometime, somewhere looked at you and tried to learn from you...

hence - you are a mentor.

Just by showing up in the right gear, you may have saved someone's life... thank you! - seriously.

There's the part a lot of folks maybe don't see so much... what you say and do have an impact on the people around you (someone deciding (including me) to rip it up through a few turns for example, could suggest to someone else to do the same - but that 'newer' rider doesn't know how many times I've been on this road - that I decided to do it through THOSE 6 turns because I KNOW there are no driveways, or intersections... because I KNOW I can see ALL THE WAY Through all 6 turns before I enter them...)

sorry - didn't mean to hijack original point - If you show up for a ride and it is the second time you've been there, somebody is probably there for the first time... so you are by definition 'leading' them a little at least...

Soil · 07-02-2009, 09:23 AM

Originally Posted by Transported

Clay, use something else besides that green.

as in...

Clay GREEN

is

GOOD....

Shrek X · 07-02-2009, 09:24 AM

you are right, older teaches younger, thats the way of things, good point

giving an example, and standing up and stating " I AM A MENTOR " are very different things.

Originally Posted by Soil

like it or not - someone, sometime, somewhere looked at you and tried to learn from you...

hence - you are a mentor.

Just by showing up in the right gear, you may have saved someone's life... thank you! - seriously.

There's the part a lot of folks maybe don't see so much... what you say and do have an impact on the people around you (someone deciding (including me) to rip it up through a few turns for example, could suggest to someone else to do the same - but that 'newer' rider doesn't know how many times I've been on this road - that I decided to do it through THOSE 6 turns because I KNOW there are no driveways, or intersections... because I KNOW I can see ALL THE WAY Through all 6 turns before I enter them...)

sorry - didn't mean to hijack original point - If you show up for a ride and it is the second time you've been there, somebody is probably there for the first time... so you are by definition 'leading' them a little at least...

BoricuaBusa · 07-02-2009, 09:25 AM

Soil · 07-02-2009, 09:28 AM

Originally Posted by Shrek X

it aint right to rip out my posts like that, aint right at all, im pissed (and that’s hard to do) I don’t like being stifled, and I don’t like being censored. This is way out of line for you, her or anyone to determine what can or cant be said here (baring agregious examples). My comments were right in line with the OP

I concur...

(I'm not sure what has been edited out - so IF the only thing being pulled out are the meeting specific...

wait - no - it is probably as easy to copy and paste into another forum instead of 'moving' (which means deleting from this thread)...

so yeah - totally in agreement with Shrek man on this one...

PLEASE stop deleting other's words... IF someone is immature enough to maliciously post embarrassing words (or pictures) of others - then I am pretty sure that those that 'matter' (the mature, responsible adults) will recognize situations for what they are and be mature and responsible about them...

mfrankpdx · 07-02-2009, 09:37 AM

Originally Posted by Lynk

Frank and Sentor, I have to side with Shrek on this one. I've gotten one over-riding theme out of this thread: "A bunch of guys want to get together to discuss how to ride faster than their group, without the n00bs ending up in the hospital, because they tried to follow us, the leaders." It just doesn't work like that.

Sorry man, I don't really care what people want to get together to discuss (or how you interpret it). I have already stated, in the now separate thread, ride leaders should lead a ride any way they want to. I have my way, I'm going to keep doing it that way because it works. If someone else does something another way and that works for them, I encourage them to keep doing it that way.

Originally Posted by Lynk

Frank, you're the only one who was around on these forums when I was leading a bunch of rides. When it came down to it, the riders with radios took control spots. That's all there was to it! Generally, I would lead the fast group, on my "cruiser." Then, someone with a radio would lead the slow group, with another radio at sweep. I always published the route ahead of time, or distributed it to the participants.

The rules were simple. If you wanted to ride faster than me, find a safe place to pass, and you're on your own until we catch up. As the front-man, I stayed in constant communication with the leader of the slow group. The slow group leader maintained communication with the sweep. If the lifeline was ever broken, we'd slow down, or double-back. Stopping points were usually pre-defined, although some impromptu was always allowed.

Do you see the theme? Go by what GoogleMaps says for travel time, and double it. You're all out there to have fun, so there shouldn't be any worry of losing the group. On the other hand, I have participated in group rides before where I was forced to ride my "cruiser" in triple-digits for ten minutes or more, because everyone took off from a gas station before I had gotten my helmet and gloves put back on. That's not the recipie for a fun day.

That's great. Do you think everyone should do it that way? I'm not going to go and tell you about the rides I led, how I do it, and why I think it works. That's not the point. Why don't you just show up for one of my rides instead? Probably because like Shrek, you think we're out there to race... that it's some kind of thrill for us to go out there and see how much space we can put between us and the guy/gal behind us. That ain't the case, that's what we go to the track for. (although in my case, it's usually the person in front of me creating all the space)

Originally Posted by Lynk

Frank, riding a cruiser is no different than riding a sportbike; they're both bikes, which inherently begin and end a turn through countersteer. Yeah, you've gotta muscle the bigger bike around at times to overcome increased rake and CG. There are a bunch of people out there on big bikes who like to push it through the corners. One way or another, they ended up on bigger bikes that are less friendly about tip-in. So what?! We're all riders.

I can't really comment since I've never ridden a cruiser. But one thing is for certain... when I look at suspension, brakes, steering geometry, ground clearance etc. etc. of a cruiser, I don't think for one second that a cruiser can safely move at the pace I enjoy moving. And the pace I enjoy moving is only 50-60% of my ability (thank you track days, you rule!). There is a whole lot of safety margin available at the pace I ride on the street. I don't care how good a rider is, they won't be able to do it on a cruiser. The physical structure of the machine is the limiting factor, not the rider. (not talking about things like the V-Max or standards)

holypiston · 07-02-2009, 09:39 AM

Originally Posted by Soil

The challenge is this:

how to explain to people (young guys mostly) that just because you can do something it doesn't mean that they (even tho they are more physically fit, better looking, stronger, younger, faster reflexes, smarter, cuter, have a bigger penis... whatever) CAN DO IT TOO....

EGO is the problem

point is - the ego is killing folks...

it happens to older guys too (ME) too. Mine got the best of me yesterday on the last part of the ride. I was a little more confident in the cougar/Amboy area and wicked it up a bit to keep the ride leaders in sight.

There was this one lady that tried to push me off in a ditch when i passed. That was something I would have expected from a Hwy 17 driver of the pass into Santa Cruz, CA.

You guys were definitely in control. I was wondering why Soil/Frank (nice riding on Curly) wasn't wheelying past/ scraping knee (in the cougar/amboy area), but it seems he's got the ego thing well under control. I like to show what a crap bike like this can do sometimes (too bad the rider is average skill level) and, so i am the picture postcard of a squid if there ever was one.

BoricuaBusa · 07-02-2009, 09:47 AM

Originally Posted by mfrankpdx

I can't really comment since I've never ridden a cruiser. But one thing is for certain... when I look at suspension, brakes, steering geometry, ground clearance etc. etc. of a cruiser, I don't think for one second that a cruiser can safely move at the pace I enjoy moving.

Sorry Mark, but I couldn't resist in posting this....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFleFrJx7nw

holypiston · 07-02-2009, 09:51 AM

Originally Posted by BoricuaBusa

Sorry Mark, but I couldn't resist in posting this....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFleFrJx7nw

that guy is badass. Unbelievable.

mfrankpdx · 07-02-2009, 09:54 AM

Originally Posted by BoricuaBusa

Sorry Mark, but I couldn't resist in posting this....

Yeah I've seen it. It's impressive, but only impressive because it's on a Wing. If he was on a sport bike, that video would be *yawn*.

I'll see your Goldwing video, and raise you this video!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whVXD3ex9DA

Transported · 07-02-2009, 09:54 AM

So, it's the application of a label (mentor) to what we are in actuality doing (being an example to others or offering a tip here and there) that bothers? Let's call it something else besides mentoring, then.

When I was learning to ride, the gray hairs among my riding group pulled me aside from time to time and said, "Why don't you try it this way instead?" I took their advice and it helped to boost my skills greatly.

I liked that form of mentoring, and I wanted to pass it along as a tradition. I also thought that rather than a random parceling of advice, we could design rides with the intention of having the experienced focus on helping the inexperienced. I could have improved so much quicker if one of those sage old guys had taken me for day-long rides and helped me every step of the way.

Also, let's face it, riding a motorcycle is a serious and difficult business. We are constantly learning new lessons, even the oldest among us. It's not like there's no need for some free advice from those who have picked up a larger volume of knowledge over the years.

BoricuaBusa · 07-02-2009, 09:57 AM

Originally Posted by mfrankpdx

Yeah I've seen it. It's impressive, but only impressive because it's on a Wing. If he was on a sport bike, that video would be *yawn*.

I'll see your Goldwing video, and raise you this video!

DGA · 07-02-2009, 10:00 AM

Only thing that I have gathered, out all of this, is to avoid PNW group rides all together. Common sense, when it comes to riding, has been replaced with pointless drivel.

This place used to be a lot smaller when I started out and back then it was a place for a few like minded people to meet for a ride, share some good roads and have a good time. There was no pre ride speech, no bullshit, just an unspoken understanding that riding at your own pace was expected from you; no one wants to be hanging around your broken body waiting for an ambulance, but riding. People waited for me at the stop signs or a turnoff and I was grateful. It gave me a piece of mind that if something happened at least there would be someone to call the ambulance, if I was not able to. I would have been personally embarrassed if I crashed and ruined everyone else’s day because of my carelessness. That kept me riding within my limits.

Now I show up to a ride and people are spewing safety, what and what no to do, passing out cards about this and that, but pulling some very outlandish shit on the bike after we get going. Few things get a reaction out of me, but when you keep preaching safety and than pull an asshole stunt like passing me on the right, or doing a burnout in front of me; I have a hard time not throwing your keys in to the bushes. As a group this whole PDX section has slowly drifted away from reality and just concentrates on living the biker image and where the next gathering is at.

Hearing about marshman's crash got me down, but that the whole group did not even know he was not there afterward just pissed me off; an epic fucking fail for everyone that was there. No excuses on that one. No one gets left behind, it's the cardinal rule of group riding, even if you have to retrace your steps and look through the ditches. The way this community is going, it's a lot safer to ride by yourself.

-Drazen

Soil · 07-02-2009, 10:04 AM

when / where?

who's doin' what?

Jeff - can you whoop out those 'meeting rules' you have ingrained in you? toss out specific roles that need to be filled during this meeting: time keeper, gate keeper, main presenter, etc... (I don't remember them all - but FIRMLY believe we need that type of structure to keep this from going BEserkER...)

Lee650 · 07-02-2009, 10:07 AM

Originally Posted by DGA

Only thing that I have gathered, out all of this, is to avoid PNW group rides all together. Common sense, when it comes to riding, has been replaced with pointless drivel.

This place used to be a lot smaller when I started out and back then it was a place for a few like minded people to meet for a ride, share some good roads and have a good time. There was no pre ride speech, no bullshit, just an unspoken understanding that riding at your own pace was expected from you; no one wants to be hanging around your broken body waiting for an ambulance, but riding. People waited for me at the stop signs or a turnoff and I was grateful. It gave me a piece of mind that if something happened at least there would be someone to call the ambulance, if I was not able to. I would have been personally embarrassed if I crashed and ruined everyone else’s day because of my carelessness. That kept me riding within my limits.

Now I show up to a ride and people are spewing safety, what and what no to do, passing out cards about this and that, but pulling some very outlandish shit on the bike after we get going. Few things get a reaction out of me, but when you keep preaching safety and than pull an asshole stunt like passing me on the right, or doing a burnout in front of me; I have a hard time not throwing your keys in to the bushes. As a group this whole PDX section has slowly drifted away from reality and just concentrates on living the biker image and where the next gathering is at.

Hearing about marshman's crash got me down, but that the whole group did not even know he was not there afterward just pissed me off; an epic fucking fail for everyone that was there. No excuses on that one. No one gets left behind, it's the cardinal rule of group riding, even if you have to retrace your steps and look through the ditches. The way this community is going, it's a lot safer to ride by yourself.

-Drazen

Yep, counting heads at each stop is pretty basic.

Zygoat · 07-02-2009, 10:13 AM

Just learned about what happened in other threads so I edited my original post out of respect to all of those affected. (I don't read this forum often enough).

I've got a few things I would like to add but it is way too late and it has been a crazy day.

Soil · 07-02-2009, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by saltlick

jesus its as simple as each person on the ride looks out for the person behind them, if you fail to see thier headlights, slow down and wait a bit til you see them. If you dont see them then turn around. Its not brain surgery you guys are turning this into a big deal when all you have to do is think of others on a ride instead of yourself. Im glad i never went on a group ride you guys sound like a bunch of squids.

question:

After repeating (almost word for word) your first THREE sentences, multiple times, before we leave on a group ride - someone consistently blows those words off....

HOW DO YOU MAKE SOMEONE DO THAT?

seriously - how do you make someone remember that?

no - really...

HOW in the world do you get someone to ACTUALLY do something they either don't want to do or they honestly forget?

really - how?

Shrek X · 07-02-2009, 10:25 AM

Originally Posted by Transported

So, it's the application of a label (mentor) to what we are in actuality doing (being an example to others or offering a tip here and there) that bothers? Let's call it something else besides mentoring, then.

When I was learning to ride, the gray hairs among my riding group pulled me aside from time to time and said, "Why don't you try it this way instead?" I took their advice and it helped to boost my skills greatly.

I liked that form of mentoring, and I wanted to pass it along as a tradition. I also thought that rather than a random parceling of advice, we could design rides with the intention of having the experienced focus on helping the inexperienced. I could have improved so much quicker if one of those sage old guys had taken me for day-long rides and helped me every step of the way.

Also, let's face it, riding a motorcycle is a serious and difficult business. We are constantly learning new lessons, even the oldest among us. It's not like there's no need for some free advice from those who have picked up a larger volume of knowledge over the years.

your right, it can be accelerated, but then it depends on who is teaching. the whole idea is ok, who is doing it and what sets them out to be able to do that is the question.

riding a motorcycle isnt difficult, it can be very simple and easy (maybe it should be harder)

For me personally (not saying what should happen, just thinking out loud), I like the idea of ride classification. Easy, moderate, spirited, or something like that, let the old and new mix up and learn. The n00b / mentor rides ... quite frankly, of the riders I know, there are probably a handful of riders on here that I would consider qualified to be a mentor. Everyone else is just giving advice and should be tempered in that light.

Spec · 07-02-2009, 10:26 AM

Everyone has good points here. There should be some sort of guidelines for group leaders to try and follow, but as well I know leaders can get ahead of the others without sufficient communication. Rides, especially ones marked for newbies, should be slow paced. I know as a ride leader and as a one-time newby that guys ride over their heads and wont mention it. It is the group leaders responsibility to make sure they're at a pace that all can handle. It is especially important that the leader take the time prior to the ride to explain not going 'over the top', who the sweeper is, how you handle things if they feel thmselves getting left behind, etc. Rides should probably be marked better so others aren't getting themselves in over their head. I know if Transported and Soil posted a ride I could expect a nice pace, but someone with 6 months experience may not know this and end up over their head.

Gist of the story: Ride leaders need to have guidelines, but they also need to keep their paces down a bit. A leader is there for the whole group. If there are others who want to go quicker, do as Lynk said and allow them to go in front of you, but you (as leader) should be keeping reasonable with your pace. As a leader, you're probably going to be much quicker than those behind. Realize this and act accordingly.

Also, deleting posts is not cool. That is the #1 thing that is going to get me (and others) in an uproar. I've almost confronted my admin friends about that in the past. Please refrain from becoming dictators of what should/shouldn't be said, that's not how I created this Portland community.


07-02-2009, 01:19 AM	#42
pv2 WMRRA Qualifier Joined: Jun 2008 From: Portland, Oregon I Ride: 03 RC51 SP-2	My humble thoughts: I feel the most experienced people should be either leading or sweeping. I don't want to see anyone who has questionable street / track skills sweeping. If people break off into sub groups then control/ accountability start getting tested. If you don't have a leader and sweeper who are experienced and technically proficient riders the probability for mishaps increases. Do we have examples of this? Many reasons for having a qualified sweeper, One of the reasons for us going out is to improve. If someone is going to do questionable riding technique especially when they think they are doing OK - where no one can see them in swiper mode, then that is counter productive and that person may be the one who winds up going down and at the very least they don't improve - the only improve doing bad habits unknowingly. Also I'd suggest a sweeper needs to be helping people in front of them to improve. Other issue: I also don't like the idea of bike riders riding too slow or stopping on roadside waiting for people who are too slow. This is where the stoppers are most vulnerable to being hit by cagers/ trucks unless they are on an area with plenty of shoulder etc. One of many possible ways around: If someone is going to stay slow even after assistance, then they should stay on Newbie Rides (where everybody is too slow) till they can pick it up and show good technique. Bicycle Riders have A, B, C level rides requiring greater stamina/ and technical proficiency, I suggest we consider this as a possible rating system. THe prob here is a person who is a C level on a bike can't keep up and will get dropped one way or the other. Here on motorbikes, twist the wrist and ....... Agreed meetings should happen and I'd like to be a part of it; however, again I am a vocal teammate to stir things a bit and hash things out; however, I yeild to people that I consider as having more time here and are known very good riders. HOpefully good teachers too. Agreed this - in forum mode - is not a great place to hash things out, much better communication occurs where we can face to face and get cross operational definitions out of the way. I do this all the time in Engineering Meetings discussing Projects spanning States and Millions of dollars involved. Emails and forums are great for alerting people and for repeating points for clarification but ultimately well thoughtout, efficient meetings are where things happen. Funny even the big companies don't seem to understand this very salient point. So I will be fine to be a part of any meeting we are going to have. But I have again place emphesis on having experienced riders on point! It may be a good idea to have a PTT (PUSH TO TALK) or something VA (voice activated and always on) intercom between the point riders / Lead-> Sweeper. The last ride I was on / a week ago: Black Sabatical was in Lead - did a very responsible job - I was in sweep or close to it most of the time - Soil was in Sweep and also assisting one of our Newbies. No issues, all ran smooth, a model ride. blater blather! thank you very much, Oh I like Sentor taking up the time to Put up a very nice Outline, I am sure he is looking to modifiy it as part of a Living Document. THere is no need to re-invent the wheel here for reasons which should be very apparent to all. A lot of statements coming from people that are looking to contribute, I'd suggest you put your ideas in a coherent form starting with Sentors form and adding/ modifiying / deleating and come to the meeting. the 4th of July comes, let us make ourselves a Bill of Rides! pv2 __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter Last edited by pv2; 07-02-2009 at 01:34 AM..


07-02-2009, 02:54 AM	#44
Lynk Superbiker Joined: Dec 2005 From: Bellevue, WA I Ride: a 2006 H-D XL1200C, 2005 Suzuki DRZ-400SM, 1997 Kawa Ninja 500R, and 2003 Yamaha YZF-R6 (racebike).	This thread is awesome! Shrek, I love ya, in the most manly of ways. It's absolutely entertaining to read some of the assumptions that are playing out here, just because you're riding a "cruiser." Frank and Sentor, I have to side with Shrek on this one. I've gotten one over-riding theme out of this thread: "A bunch of guys want to get together to discuss how to ride faster than their group, without the n00bs ending up in the hospital, because they tried to follow us, the leaders." It just doesn't work like that. Frank, you're the only one who was around on these forums when I was leading a bunch of rides. When it came down to it, the riders with radios took control spots. That's all there was to it! Generally, I would lead the fast group, on my "cruiser." Then, someone with a radio would lead the slow group, with another radio at sweep. I always published the route ahead of time, or distributed it to the participants. The rules were simple. If you wanted to ride faster than me, find a safe place to pass, and you're on your own until we catch up. As the front-man, I stayed in constant communication with the leader of the slow group. The slow group leader maintained communication with the sweep. If the lifeline was ever broken, we'd slow down, or double-back. Stopping points were usually pre-defined, although some impromptu was always allowed. Do you see the theme? Go by what GoogleMaps says for travel time, and double it. You're all out there to have fun, so there shouldn't be any worry of losing the group. On the other hand, I have participated in group rides before where I was forced to ride my "cruiser" in triple-digits for ten minutes or more, because everyone took off from a gas station before I had gotten my helmet and gloves put back on. That's not the recipie for a fun day. Frank, riding a cruiser is no different than riding a sportbike; they're both bikes, which inherently begin and end a turn through countersteer. Yeah, you've gotta muscle the bigger bike around at times to overcome increased rake and CG. There are a bunch of people out there on big bikes who like to push it through the corners. One way or another, they ended up on bigger bikes that are less friendly about tip-in. So what?! We're all riders. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


07-02-2009, 04:55 AM	#46
dragracer1951 MotoGP Champion Joined: Sep 2005 From: Bremerton I Ride: 03 Are See fiddy one, 05 DRZ400SM, 95 FZR1040, 69 Combat Commando Roadster, 73 Commando Interstate, 67 BSA B44, 71 BSA B50	I'll give you my thoughts I've lead one or two rides... The idea of a get together for leads and sweeps is a good idea. Do that... It may be a bit of a knee jerk reaction to an unfortunate accident. Recognize that. I've slowed down on riding in larger group rides. My 50th Aniv R1 was totaled last Nov when a noob rear ended me on a ride with over 30 people. Slow, mellow putt... Now I mostly ride with a group of similarly skilled riders that I know won't do something silly. From what I understand, the incident was caused by the group splitting, adn the leaders not aware of everyones actions. Had they been more aware, people would have known sooner that one of the riders was not there. Rides are an orginizational nightmare... But the idea of an organized effort to get leads adn ride organizers on the same page is a good one. There are basics that ought to happen every ride. Getting people at least THINKING about how to enforce rules is a good thing. I completely agree with whoever it was that brought up the differences in riding levels of noobs and vets. Most people aren't going to volunteer that they feel uncomfortable with the pace untill it's maybe too late... I don't know what can really be done to make sure what HAS happened never happens again, but just by looking at it and trying to improve is a good thing. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


07-02-2009, 08:14 AM	#49
lena Moderator Joined: Aug 2007 From: Portland, OR I Ride: Monster 750	Ride leading Go have at it here. All off-topic posts moved from this thread: Group Ride Leaders Meeting - Planning Process __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


07-02-2009, 08:17 AM	#50
lena Moderator Joined: Aug 2007 From: Portland, OR I Ride: Monster 750	This thread is specifically for setting up a ride leading meeting, all posts discussing ride leading moved to here: http://pnwriders.com/portland-region...e-leading.html Please keep it on topic. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter

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07-02-2009, 08:48 AM	#55
Shrek X Mr. 500,000 Joined: Dec 2006 From: Portland I Ride: VTX	I see, so I cant comment on the Portland threads. nice, open, great __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


07-02-2009, 09:05 AM	#57
Transported MotoGP Champion Joined: Dec 2006 From: Portland, Oregon Blog Entries: 1 I Ride: '99 R1, '80 Suz GS450S	Rather than lock the thread for straying off topic, Lena decided to keep the ride-leading thread pure to its intent by separating out. Probably a good thing, as the ride-leader meeting is a topic that needs to be addressed in its own right. She doesn't want good intentions to go astray, as they so often do in this free-for-all. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


07-02-2009, 09:06 AM	#58
Transported MotoGP Champion Joined: Dec 2006 From: Portland, Oregon Blog Entries: 1 I Ride: '99 R1, '80 Suz GS450S	Clay, use something else besides that green. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


07-02-2009, 09:25 AM	#65
BoricuaBusa Streetfighter Joined: Apr 2009 From: Beaverton, OR I Ride: 2004 Hayabusa LE	__________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


07-02-2009, 09:54 AM	#72
Transported MotoGP Champion Joined: Dec 2006 From: Portland, Oregon Blog Entries: 1 I Ride: '99 R1, '80 Suz GS450S	So, it's the application of a label (mentor) to what we are in actuality doing (being an example to others or offering a tip here and there) that bothers? Let's call it something else besides mentoring, then. When I was learning to ride, the gray hairs among my riding group pulled me aside from time to time and said, "Why don't you try it this way instead?" I took their advice and it helped to boost my skills greatly. I liked that form of mentoring, and I wanted to pass it along as a tradition. I also thought that rather than a random parceling of advice, we could design rides with the intention of having the experienced focus on helping the inexperienced. I could have improved so much quicker if one of those sage old guys had taken me for day-long rides and helped me every step of the way. Also, let's face it, riding a motorcycle is a serious and difficult business. We are constantly learning new lessons, even the oldest among us. It's not like there's no need for some free advice from those who have picked up a larger volume of knowledge over the years. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


07-02-2009, 10:00 AM	#74
DGA Superbiker Joined: Jun 2007 From: Portland, Oregon I Ride: naked	Only thing that I have gathered, out all of this, is to avoid PNW group rides all together. Common sense, when it comes to riding, has been replaced with pointless drivel. This place used to be a lot smaller when I started out and back then it was a place for a few like minded people to meet for a ride, share some good roads and have a good time. There was no pre ride speech, no bullshit, just an unspoken understanding that riding at your own pace was expected from you; no one wants to be hanging around your broken body waiting for an ambulance, but riding. People waited for me at the stop signs or a turnoff and I was grateful. It gave me a piece of mind that if something happened at least there would be someone to call the ambulance, if I was not able to. I would have been personally embarrassed if I crashed and ruined everyone else’s day because of my carelessness. That kept me riding within my limits. Now I show up to a ride and people are spewing safety, what and what no to do, passing out cards about this and that, but pulling some very outlandish shit on the bike after we get going. Few things get a reaction out of me, but when you keep preaching safety and than pull an asshole stunt like passing me on the right, or doing a burnout in front of me; I have a hard time not throwing your keys in to the bushes. As a group this whole PDX section has slowly drifted away from reality and just concentrates on living the biker image and where the next gathering is at. Hearing about marshman's crash got me down, but that the whole group did not even know he was not there afterward just pissed me off; an epic fucking fail for everyone that was there. No excuses on that one. No one gets left behind, it's the cardinal rule of group riding, even if you have to retrace your steps and look through the ditches. The way this community is going, it's a lot safer to ride by yourself. -Drazen __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


07-02-2009, 10:04 AM	#75
Soil Zone Head Joined: Mar 2008 From: Beaverton, OR - CLAY I Ride: K6 GSXR 1K	when / where? who's doin' what? Jeff - can you whoop out those 'meeting rules' you have ingrained in you? toss out specific roles that need to be filled during this meeting: time keeper, gate keeper, main presenter, etc... (I don't remember them all - but FIRMLY believe we need that type of structure to keep this from going BEserkER...) __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


07-02-2009, 10:13 AM	#77
Zygoat Training Wheels Joined: Jul 2005 From: Portland, OR I Ride: Piano Bike	Just learned about what happened in other threads so I edited my original post out of respect to all of those affected. (I don't read this forum often enough). I've got a few things I would like to add but it is way too late and it has been a crazy day. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter Last edited by Zygoat; 07-03-2009 at 02:28 AM.. Reason: Different circumstances


07-02-2009, 10:26 AM	#80
Spec State Farm Joined: Dec 2005 From: Happy Valley, OR I Ride: race-prepped '05 ZX6-R, '83 Yamaha XS400	Everyone has good points here. There should be some sort of guidelines for group leaders to try and follow, but as well I know leaders can get ahead of the others without sufficient communication. Rides, especially ones marked for newbies, should be slow paced. I know as a ride leader and as a one-time newby that guys ride over their heads and wont mention it. It is the group leaders responsibility to make sure they're at a pace that all can handle. It is especially important that the leader take the time prior to the ride to explain not going 'over the top', who the sweeper is, how you handle things if they feel thmselves getting left behind, etc. Rides should probably be marked better so others aren't getting themselves in over their head. I know if Transported and Soil posted a ride I could expect a nice pace, but someone with 6 months experience may not know this and end up over their head. Gist of the story: Ride leaders need to have guidelines, but they also need to keep their paces down a bit. A leader is there for the whole group. If there are others who want to go quicker, do as Lynk said and allow them to go in front of you, but you (as leader) should be keeping reasonable with your pace. As a leader, you're probably going to be much quicker than those behind. Realize this and act accordingly. Also, deleting posts is not cool. That is the #1 thing that is going to get me (and others) in an uproar. I've almost confronted my admin friends about that in the past. Please refrain from becoming dictators of what should/shouldn't be said, that's not how I created this Portland community. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter

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