PNW Riders

307T · 07-05-2009, 09:28 PM

So then, five pages of suggestions, stories, slings and arrows, moderator involvement and some creative trolling with pictures. Went through the whole damned mess and didn't ever see that the original poster put up a time and place for his suggested meeting. Yeah, that'll work.

Lee650 · 07-05-2009, 09:52 PM

Originally Posted by Shrek X

or, just maybe, think about quit racing on the street and actually go to the track... I know its scary to put yourself up against real riders, but you may just get better. (i am using the "royal" you Lee, not directed at you unless you fit what I am talking about)

crazy idea i know, but that just may work.

trust me when I say, racing or riding to excess is the problem here and I speak from experienced. you want to stop crashes and people getting hurt, slow down... just that simple

and if your a new rider, and look to someone on this board to be a mentor... dont. Until you see qualifications (and I mean working through a good track learning curve, teachin courses etc), assume they have as much experience as you do

I am so glad we finally found someone who can solve all our problems.

Shrek X · 07-06-2009, 06:58 AM

Originally Posted by Lee650

I am so glad we finally found someone who can solve all our problems.

feel free to tell me I am wrong.

people get all worried about all the crashes this year.... but they are mostly single person crashes, why is that? the answer is obvious to anyone with a half a brain

I am not saying what isn’t already well known. The stats prove that out very well. What I am stating it seems is what people are unwilling to say, that your own riding makes you crash.

Now you can take into account, that most of the crashes didn’t occur when someone was riding alone, and they were not leading their own ride... so you can put 2 and 2 together on that one cant ya.

Now I applauded the effort of the discussion, I think its important the right discussion is had or at least all the cards are on the table.

pv2 · 07-06-2009, 07:09 AM

Originally Posted by 307T

So then, five pages of suggestions, stories, slings and arrows, moderator involvement and some creative trolling with pictures. Went through the whole damned mess and didn't ever see that the original poster put up a time and place for his suggested meeting. Yeah, that'll work.

We just got done with the weekend, rides in etc.
ONe of which on the 4th Sentor was in front.
No issues on this one.

Today is Monday - get caught up
Tomorrow is coffee Tuesday! - a nice day to start discussion

Have a happyone!

pv2

Lee650 · 07-06-2009, 09:56 AM

Originally Posted by Shrek X

feel free to tell me I am wrong.

people get all worried about all the crashes this year.... but they are mostly single person crashes, why is that? the answer is obvious to anyone with a half a brain

I am not saying what isn’t already well known. The stats prove that out very well. What I am stating it seems is what people are unwilling to say, that your own riding makes you crash.

Now you can take into account, that most of the crashes didn’t occur when someone was riding alone, and they were not leading their own ride... so you can put 2 and 2 together on that one cant ya.

Now I applauded the effort of the discussion, I think its important the right discussion is had or at least all the cards are on the table.

Unlike you, several people on this forum have actually done something to help the new riders in this area. Vaun and several others have put together three Mentor rides that covered many of the problem areas such as braking,
cornering, speed, bike set-up and many other things. Newbie friendly rides are posted all summer long by people like Clay and others that make it a point to keep the group speed down so even the slowest rider is comfortable. If you had been to any group ride that I've attended you would know that part of the group meeting always covers, Ride you own ride, we wait for slower rides and do not ride faster then your comfortable with. But as in all cases you me nor anyone else can control the throttle hand or the brake of riders in the group. You can spout all the safety issues you want but in the end you have no control. All you can do is be there if something happens and help out when you can. So if you really want to help, instead of flapping you jaw, get out and host a ride, be a mentor or offer to haul a broken bike back into Portland after someone puts it down, 100 miles from town.

pdxnathan · 07-06-2009, 10:02 AM

For what little it's worth, I'll share my limited personal experience with group rides. I really don't even like this thread, because I don't like seeing good people who I know in person rip each other online, when they wouldn't act that way in person at all.

But I realized the other day that from all this discussion, I am getting some confirmation of my own feelings on group rides. This in turn makes me better able to follow my own instincts on this subject. So, if I can help someone else trust his or her own judgement by sharing my opinions, then I owe it to at least put my thoughts out there, know what I mean? So...

1) for me, a big group ride is distracting, confusing, and a little overwhelming. it can be tempting to do stuff I wouldn't normally do, to push my comfort envelope, or just to lose focus on riding well.

2) for me, a small group of 3-4 people max where I know the riding skills and style of people in the group is the exact opposite: I feel more comfortable knowing that someone has my back, I get tips like debris pointers, I get to see someone whose "pace" I know, and who has ridden the route before, head into a turn ahead of me... all these things make me a better and safer rider without distracting me. but that said, I still find myself occasionally riding a little faster than I would by myself because I'm having fun with a friend.

I'm not saying big group rides are "bad" or anything, I only know that I trust my own instincts, and my experience so far is that I feel much less comfortable riding in a big group than that a small group. If someone out there is feeling the same way, I encourage you to follow those instincts and avoid big group rides. On the other hand if this goes totally against your experience, well then I encourage you to follow your own instincts on this one, and do what makes you a more comfortable and confident and safer rider.

Soil · 07-06-2009, 11:06 AM

Notice a lot of 'instinct' and 'common sense' thoughts floating around out here these days...

first - I mean NO insult to ANYONE, nor am I questioning any ONE person's common sense or instincts...

BUT - 'following' your instincts or your 'common sense' is not always the smart thing to do... (well published example: Marshall - He was following his instincts and common sense and tried to keep up. Bad decision)

There are a few things in life where 'common sense' and 'instincts' are not naturally the best things to do. Survival Reactions discussion - (if you don't know what I am talking about, ASK ME!!!!!) On a bike, your NATURAL HUMAN INSTINCTS are almost always the wrong thing to do.

my point: I think that a LOT of the crashes that happen, happen because the rider doesn't know what he (she) doesn't know - specifically when your natural human survival instincts are just wrong. And obviously not knowing that, leads to not knowing what the right thing to do is...

crash.

JUST when you think 'I got this'! I understand - I have overcome the challenge! I figured it out! BLAM! new mirror and exhaust and rear set needed! (and that was a GREAT crash!)

PLEASE slow down ya'll!

pdxnathan · 07-06-2009, 11:16 AM

Soil, I agree that in-the-moment "SRs" are usually totally wrong. Those aren't the instincts I was talking about.

I believe that going into a situation, if I feel uneasy, or if during a ride, I feel like I'm pushing it, that I should trust that instinct or judgement. Usually when I've gotten into a bad situation, I had some reservations going in (or flat out knew it was a bad idea) and I didn't pay enough attention to my own judgement, instead going forward on pride, stubborn-ness, on group-think, or whatever.

So I'm just trying to encourage people to pay attention to their "spidey-sense". If they feel like they are getting in over their heads or they feel uncomfortable or distracted, don't just ignore that and soldier on. Stop and assess and if needed, leave the situation. Or, like you said, SLOW DOWN

Shrek X · 07-06-2009, 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by Lee650

Unlike you,

Interesting, so you know me? you have met me? know what I do with my time? where I ride? who I ride with? Because I dont recall seeing you or meeting you.

Nice making this personal though and trying to attack me instead of issues. Sorry you don’t agree with me, as for judging me or pretending you know me

cause I guarantee you don’t.

Originally Posted by Lee650

several people on this forum have actually done something to help the new riders in this area. Vaun and several others have put together three Mentor rides that covered many of the problem areas such as braking,
cornering, speed, bike set-up and many other things.

I have seen that, and if they have the needed skills to do that, thats great.

Originally Posted by Lee650

Newbie friendly rides are posted all summer long by people like Clay and others that make it a point to keep the group speed down so even the slowest rider is comfortable. If you had been to any group ride that I've attended you would know that part of the group meeting always covers, Ride you own ride, we wait for slower rides and do not ride faster then your comfortable with. But as in all cases you me nor anyone else can control the throttle hand or the brake of riders in the group. You can spout all the safety issues you want but in the end you have no control. All you can do is be there if something happens and help out when you can. So if you really want to help, instead of flapping you jaw, get out and host a ride, be a mentor or offer to haul a broken bike back into Portland after someone puts it down, 100 miles from town.

As for you trying to determine what I do or when I do it, you dont know me well enough to attempt that.

You may have seen me post a few rides here, probably not. You have no idea if I have picked riders up along the road or not, you have no idea if I have advised riders on how or when to ride, essentially you know nothing about me, but here I sit “flapping my lips”, according to you, and here you sit speaking from a huge position of ignorance.

I will continue to share my opinion, I have enough experience to have one. If you don’t like it… that’s your problem.

mfrankpdx · 07-06-2009, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by Shrek X

Interesting, so you know me? you have met me? know what I do with my time? where I ride? who I ride with? Because I dont recall seeing you or meeting you.

Nice making this personal though and trying to attack me instead of issues. Sorry you don’t agree with me, as for judging me or pretending you know me

cause I guarantee you don’t.

I have seen that, and if they have the needed skills to do that, thats great.

As for you trying to determine what I do or when I do it, you dont know me well enough to attempt that.

You may have seen me post a few rides here, probably not. You have no idea if I have picked riders up along the road or not, you have no idea if I have advised riders on how or when to ride, essentially you know nothing about me, but here I sit “flapping my lips”, according to you, and here you sit speaking from a huge position of ignorance.

Seriously dude, how can you sit and pass judgment on others, then get upset when someone passes judgment on you?

Shrek X · 07-06-2009, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by mfrankpdx

Seriously dude, how can you sit and pass judgment on others, then get upset when someone passes judgment on you?

who exactly have I judged? and where did I judge anyone? have I named anyone? have I said "you suck" like has just been done to me? no - I have offered my opinion to what is happening, obviously some have gotten buthurt about it.

If you don’t think the problem is racing on the street, say so. If you think everyone calling themselves mentors are qualified, than state that. I have clearly stated that there are very few I know who would fit into that category, and have also clearly stated that I don’t know most.

so seriously “dude”, yea, I am going to take offence when someone tries calling me out and has no fucking idea who I am.

Zygoat · 07-06-2009, 01:33 PM

Priority check: this thread has over 2,000+ views and the california thread has almost 300. Less yabber yabber and more ridey ridey!

ninja-rida · 07-06-2009, 01:41 PM

mfrankpdx · 07-06-2009, 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by Shrek X

who exactly have I judged? and where did I judge anyone? have I named anyone? have I said "you suck" like has just been done to me? no - I have offered my opinion to what is happening, obviously some have gotten buthurt about it.

Here are a few, just from page one.

Originally Posted by Shrek X

try riding instead of street racing for a change, maybe that will make your rides safer.

Originally Posted by Shrek X

its the fact that you all turn it into a race.... problem here isnt the ride, its how you ride. gonna treat it like its a race, your gonna crash, especially you spark plugs that keep takin the n00bs back in the hills trying to show how good you are and getting all fuzzy you showed someone with 4 months seat time you were faster in some corner

Originally Posted by Shrek X

if the intent isnt going out to play ricky racer in the first place, it quickly becomes a non-issue.

That is passing judgment, because turning a ride into a race ISN'T the problem, and that's not what's happening.

Originally Posted by Shrek X

If you don’t think the problem is racing on the street, say so.

I have said that, but you failed to respond;

Originally Posted by mfrankpdx

The intent isn't to play "ricky racer" or to race. The intent is to get outside, enjoy the open road, see some sights, stop, chat, laugh, etc. like you said. But nobody is able to know what others are feeling when they ride. So you get newbie riding in over his head, white knuckling the bars, and he may think that feeling is totally normal at that speed. He doesn't know how the vet rider feels. Meanwhile, the vet is completely relaxed and enjoying the scenery.

Originally Posted by Shrek X

so seriously “dude”, yea, I am going to take offence when someone tries calling me out and has no fucking idea who I am.

Yet you can call us all out? You can question whether or not someone is capable of mentoring a newbie? You can tell us how we're riding (racing as you say), without even hitting the road with us?

I'll tell you exactly what the problem is. It isn't trying to be "ricky racer" or trying to road race.

Let me explain;

I did 600+ miles this weekend, all at a pretty good clip. If you were following us, you would probably think we were trying to race. Yeah I did some extended distance at near triple digits, but guess what, I was riding at about 50%-60% of my ability. I had a big margin of safety, even at those speeds. Why? Because I've taken it to the track. I've done emergency braking from 160 mph. I've cornered at some pretty good lean angles. I've practiced lap after lap of riding at 90%. I could because I was in a controlled environment. Riding at 50%-60% on the street is the most fun I can have on 2 wheels. I'm not going to ride around at 20%, it just doesn't do it for me. Now if I spend years and years on the track, so much that my 50%-60% becomes way too dangerous for the street, I might just become a track only rider. You see it quite a bit from seasoned track vets. That 50% is just too fast for the street, and riding at 20% just isn't fun.

Now take a newbie, put him behind me or anyone else on one of those rides, and he/she would probably have had to ride at 99% just to keep us in sight. That doesn't leave a large margin for error. One little bump in the road, one corner entry a little faster than expected, one little tar snake... and bam! And if that happened, it WOULDN'T have meant we were trying to race!

This is why newbies crash: They don't know what they or their bike is capable of. They have no idea what their 50% is. If you tell them to take it easy, they don't even really know what that means. They just don't have enough experience. Put them behind a seasoned track vet riding at 30%, who will breeze around a 30 mph corner at 60 mph with one hand on the bars, watch the newbie follow them into that corner and see what happens. It won't be good. Does that mean the vet was being "ricky racer"? Is riding at 50% being "ricky racer"? What about riding at 60%? When does someone go from being just a rider, to being "ricky racer"? Whatever pace you consider a non-racing pace, is probably 10% of quite a few riders on this forum. I ain't going to ride around at 10%, and refusing to ride at 10% doesn't make me "ricky racer".

For you to sit there on your soap box calling sport bikers "ricky racer" is a pretty dick move, especially since you don't know what the hell you're talking about. When was the last time you sat in the saddle of a sport bike? Been to the track? I think we all know the answers to those questions. It's just too bad you reinforce the stereotype of the know it all cruiser rider who hates sport bikers.

Soil · 07-06-2009, 02:06 PM

Hey buddy! sorry! it does seem like I responded just to your post... SORRY!!! Didn't mean to single you or anyone else out.

BUT - since you pointed out my point....that is exactly what I'm trying to say. My suggestion is that most new riders (most, not all) can't trust those 'reservations' or their own 'judgement'. After meeting you Nathan (haven't ridden together tho) - I would say you are the exception rather than the rule... YOUR common sense seems pretty solid, where as MOST other new riders don't realize what they have between their legs. I am struggling with it - how to communicate to someone that they may not have enough experience to make a good decision about something as simple as applying throttle or brake in a situation, much less something as dangerous as deciding who to ride with...

situation:

Marshall... his 'judgment' given a set of circumstances was to go faster and try to keep up.

JasonC - his intelligence rightly told him to shy away from the bigger bikes to start with... but his bike choice had something to do with his first get off (tires, weight, brake condition, etc...)

MY intelligence told me that I knew a turn well enough that I COULD lean the bike over safely if I just avoided the gravel tracks...

Hell - I've proven to myself at LEAST a dozen times in the last few weeks that my own 'self control' and 'decision making' is questionable...

man - I'm getting depressed! I need to ride!

Originally Posted by pdxnathan

Soil, I agree that in-the-moment "SRs" are usually totally wrong. Those aren't the instincts I was talking about.

I believe that going into a situation, if I feel uneasy, or if during a ride, I feel like I'm pushing it, that I should trust that instinct or judgement. Usually when I've gotten into a bad situation, I had some reservations going in (or flat out knew it was a bad idea) and I didn't pay enough attention to my own judgement, instead going forward on pride, stubborn-ness, on group-think, or whatever.

So I'm just trying to encourage people to pay attention to their "spidey-sense". If they feel like they are getting in over their heads or they feel uncomfortable or distracted, don't just ignore that and soldier on. Stop and assess and if needed, leave the situation. Or, like you said, SLOW DOWN

Shrek X · 07-06-2009, 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by mfrankpdx

Here are a few, just from page one.

That is passing judgment, because turning a ride into a race ISN'T the problem, and that's not what's happening.

Ahh, got it, so because I was addressing an issue which everyone knows exists, I was calling you out. Ill be real clear if I call you you out, I will use your name.

Originally Posted by mfrankpdx

I have said that, but you failed to respond;

Yet you can call us all out? You can question whether or not someone is capable of mentoring a newbie? You can tell us how we're riding (racing as you say), without even hitting the road with us?

I'll tell you exactly what the problem is. It isn't trying to be "ricky racer" or trying to road race.

Let me explain;

I did 600+ miles this weekend, all at a pretty good clip. If you were following us, you would probably think we were trying to race. Yeah I did some extended distance at near triple digits, but guess what, I was riding at about 50%-60% of my ability. I had a big margin of safety, even at those speeds. Why? Because I've taken it to the track. I've done emergency braking from 160 mph. I've cornered at some pretty good lean angles. I've practiced lap after lap of riding at 90%. I could because I was in a controlled environment. Riding at 50%-60% on the street is the most fun I can have on 2 wheels. I'm not going to ride around at 20%, it just doesn't do it for me. Now if I spend years and years on the track, so much that my 50%-60% becomes way too dangerous for the street, I might just become a track only rider. You see it quite a bit from seasoned track vets. That 50% is just too fast for the street, and riding at 20% just isn't fun.

Now take a newbie, put him behind me or anyone else on one of those rides, and he/she would probably have had to ride at 99% just to keep us in sight. That doesn't leave a large margin for error. One little bump in the road, one corner entry a little faster than expected, one little tar snake... and bam! And if that happened, it WOULDN'T have meant we were trying to race!

This is why newbies crash: They don't know what they or their bike is capable of. They have no idea what their 50% is. If you tell them to take it easy, they don't even really know what that means. They just don't have enough experience. Put them behind a seasoned track vet riding at 30%, who will breeze around a 30 mph corner at 60 mph with one hand on the bars, watch the newbie follow them into that corner and see what happens. It won't be good. Does that mean the vet was being "ricky racer"? Is riding at 50% being "ricky racer"? What about riding at 60%? When does someone go from being just a rider, to being "ricky racer"? Whatever pace you consider a non-racing pace, is probably 10% of quite a few riders on this forum. I ain't going to ride around at 10%, and refusing to ride at 10% doesn't make me "ricky racer".

For you to sit there on your soap box calling sport bikers "ricky racer" is a pretty dick move, especially since you don't know what the hell you're talking about. When was the last time you sat in the saddle of a sport bike? Been to the track? I think we all know the answers to those questions. It's just too bad you reinforce the stereotype of the know it all cruiser rider who hates sport bikers.

do tell all about me, as you seem to be an expert. tell me what my love or hate or experience on any type of bike is, do tell.

fact is ace, you dont know squat about me or what I have or have had in the garage.

if 20% isnt fun, I dont give a shit, get out of town, have fun, enjoy... that rocks. as for what I hate, is for people to put others in danger because of their own fucking ego... if that aint you, than get up off me cause I aint talkin to you

ricky racer comes in when they are doing 50% on some back road with someone they know is a n00b, they have taken out there, but yet they ride at 50% knowing that the n00b will try to keep up, riding over their head and up to 90%+ of their capability because it makes them feel manly and important showing how “good” they are.

If that’s you… how ya doin ricky, if not, don’t fucking worry about me. I have used generalities and scenarios to make a point, maybe it hit to close to home for you so you took it personal.

It’s a nice copout to say “ride your own ride”, but we all know how the ego gets jammed into that one…. I have done it, I am sure you have done it, trying to keep up with someone you shouldn’t have even thought about trying with. If someone is taking inexperienced riders out it seems to me that they would be riding at that 10% place for the sake of those inexperienced riders… maybe that’s just me.

I got no problem with someone heading out on a back road where they can see, and know there are no cars, rippin it up.. we have all been there and gotten our rocks off on some good pavement. Lots of good riders around doing that.

My problem comes in with “mentors” setting up rides, telling the n00bs to “ride your own ride”, and taking off into the distance. Anyone with a half a brain knows those n00bs are going to try to keep up… is that the n00bs fault, sure. But if the mentor is experienced, and someone worth a shit, they will be riding at >10%, knowing where that n00b is and how they are doing. You took them out there, you get them back… but that’s just how I see it, if that’s calling you out… than post up so we know who you are.

BoricuaBusa · 07-06-2009, 03:48 PM

Originally Posted by Shrek X

If someone is taking inexperienced riders out it seems to me that they would be riding at that 10% place for the sake of those inexperienced riders… maybe that’s just me.
.

I'll have to agree with this statement.

XcaptainXbloodX · 07-06-2009, 04:16 PM

still would like to know when this meeting is going to happen.

ddonacazx12 · 07-06-2009, 04:17 PM

Originally Posted by BoricuaBusa

I'll have to agree with this statement.

I spent one whole day riding at 20% to help you out... and Lee was probably only at 10% for the whole time. So there better not be any complaints from the peanut galley over there...

But then SHREK wasn't on the mentor ride so he wouldn't know that... but he feels empowered to make assumptions and form judgement from something he knows nothing about.

(So Neil, don't encourage him...)

Shrek X · 07-06-2009, 04:41 PM

Originally Posted by ddonacazx12

I spent one whole day riding at 20% to help you out... and Lee was probably only at 10% for the whole time. So there better not be any complaints from the peanut galley over there...

But then SHREK wasn't on the mentor ride so he wouldn't know that... but he feels empowered to make assumptions and form judgement from something he knows nothing about.

(So Neil, don't encourage him...)

was I talking about any specific ride? If your one of those who takes care of the people they take out, drive on. If you have the skills to teach, even better... if not...

to the OP, it would be cool to update the original post with a time / date.

I would recomend picking something that works for you, as not everyone will be able to make any 1 time. if it is fruitful, you can make more

kmannth · 07-06-2009, 05:00 PM

Fu$% that. Inexperienced riders need to take responsibility for their own actions. I really hate to see people wreck and F up but I (or others on the ride) am in no way shape or form responsible for the actions of OTHERS.

Many on this forum take GREAT effort to help out new riders. Many rides are at the new rider pace; they are pretty well called out in the posts for them. Many rides would accommodate a new rider pace at the back of the line no problems. You can take a horse to water but you can't make it drink. The Mentor things this is going on is not a mentor speeding off into the distance and causing the rider they are with to crash.

I have seen all sorts of dumb things on group rides, doesn't mean I do anything that is outside of my comfort zone. I am sure some people feel I ride dumb at times. Who cares, we all ride our own ride. All of the crashes I have seen this year (3x) were not at speeds that were illigal (to the best of my knowledge). People are not out there showing folks how to knee drag on the street....

If new riders can't keep it in their pants they are going to get hurt; group ride or solo ride, gear or no gear, sport or cruiser, track or street.

Did everyone read that ok?

If riders can't be big boys and girls and ride within THEIR limits they have a much greater chance of crashing, getting hurt and sadly dying. For some riders the risk of expanding their limits is worth the reward, it is all personal choice.

Personal responsibility is REQUIRED of all riders.

If you spend much time on this forum you might assume everyone crashes all the time quite badly. It should scare you away from riding motorcycles in general and for sure attending any rides posted here. They are dangerous and it can kill you. RIP fallen riders.

Personally whenever I encounter new riders to the group I tell them to ride their own ride and to take their time, we won't leave you behind and we are just cruising. Sometimes those riders end up in front of me, sometimes behind. I have never once on any PNW ride heard anyone say "Would you please speed up you are slowing the group down?" I have most definitely heard "It really looks like you are riding over your head, maybe you should slow down?"

If the damages is just there is the pressure of riding with others and to "keep up" the only solution is not to have rides posted on this forum. For some riders just getting to the ride is too dangerous.

Have Fun and Be Safe!

saltlick · 07-06-2009, 05:19 PM

i was new to group rides as of last season. First group ride i went on sucked. People passed me so fast right in the beginning it scared the crap out of me when they buzzed by. I lost sight of all of them within a few minutes. I had no idea if i was suppose to keep up or not. My first group ride and no one spoke of "ride your own ride" at the gathering before hand. This ride wasnt with anyone on this board.

So i tried to keep up, or at least keep them in my sights. I was FOR SURE riding out of my comfort zone. I was riding with people that were almost putting thier knees down on every turn and it was going through the backroads on 47 up to Scappose then Ranier.

I almost lost it twice around turns then figured forget it, ill just go my own pace and if i dont see them at the next stop sign then fuck em. I dont want to ride with them anyways. Next stop sign there they were off thier bikes waiting for me, when i showed up no one said anything, one guy said in a disgusted voice "gee, guess your not use carvin the canyons are you?" then they split again and i lost them again within 10 seconds.

I wound up finishing the ride on my own and didnt really know the path home but found it. Now that i know whats up, i look back at that and think what a bunch of ass hats those guys were.

I can see how newbies can crash on thier first run, they dont want to look stupid and go beyond thier abilities. Not sure how to avoid that....no one wants to be the last guy that is holding people up, especially when your new.

BoricuaBusa · 07-06-2009, 06:33 PM

Originally Posted by ddonacazx12

I spent one whole day riding at 20% to help you out... and Lee was probably only at 10% for the whole time. So there better not be any complaints from the peanut galley over there...

But then SHREK wasn't on the mentor ride so he wouldn't know that... but he feels empowered to make assumptions and form judgement from something he knows nothing about.

(So Neil, don't encourage him...)

Haha...ok ok....there are exceptions...ej, Lee, Vaun, Lena, Brian, Mark, your self & a few others.....

I definetly can say that I have learn a lot from these guys... & gals... It's funny but now eveytime i go thru a turn all I can remember is Lee in front of me pointing his arm out as "LOOk THRU THE FREACKING TURN"...

But when I said, I do agree, I meant that I have been in a few rides that title "noob oriented or something like that" and some people are riding 60-70%, thru roads that are NOT noob oriented at all.

And that bring me to a really good advice for some newbies. Take me for example, I take a lot of shit/jokes from some people about my riding (SLOW), but then again "who's the one crashing"??? From some of the people above, and some track days I have done, I have learn a lot of skills already, so could I be faster, keep up with them, and still inside my comfort level? The answer is YES. But here is the best part, I DONT HAVE TOO, BECAUSE I DONT HAVE NOTHING TO PROOF" Do I still enjoy the ride? Hell yes I do, especially when I'm back at home, safe.

and finally, while I don't agree with some of Shreck's coments, I do agree with some. No one is perfect in this world, no one knows everything, but is up to each of us to learn who we listen, what we listen, and what we decide to apply to our selfs. Everyone will have a diferent opinion but no one is right or wrong.

Be safe.

mfrankpdx · 07-06-2009, 08:54 PM

Originally Posted by Shrek X

Ahh, got it, so because I was addressing an issue which everyone knows exists, I was calling you out. Ill be real clear if I call you you out, I will use your name.

do tell all about me, as you seem to be an expert. tell me what my love or hate or experience on any type of bike is, do tell.

fact is ace, you dont know squat about me or what I have or have had in the garage.

if 20% isnt fun, I dont give a shit, get out of town, have fun, enjoy... that rocks. as for what I hate, is for people to put others in danger because of their own fucking ego... if that aint you, than get up off me cause I aint talkin to you

ricky racer comes in when they are doing 50% on some back road with someone they know is a n00b, they have taken out there, but yet they ride at 50% knowing that the n00b will try to keep up, riding over their head and up to 90%+ of their capability because it makes them feel manly and important showing how “good” they are.

If that’s you… how ya doin ricky, if not, don’t fucking worry about me. I have used generalities and scenarios to make a point, maybe it hit to close to home for you so you took it personal.

It’s a nice copout to say “ride your own ride”, but we all know how the ego gets jammed into that one…. I have done it, I am sure you have done it, trying to keep up with someone you shouldn’t have even thought about trying with. If someone is taking inexperienced riders out it seems to me that they would be riding at that 10% place for the sake of those inexperienced riders… maybe that’s just me.

I got no problem with someone heading out on a back road where they can see, and know there are no cars, rippin it up.. we have all been there and gotten our rocks off on some good pavement. Lots of good riders around doing that.

My problem comes in with “mentors” setting up rides, telling the n00bs to “ride your own ride”, and taking off into the distance. Anyone with a half a brain knows those n00bs are going to try to keep up… is that the n00bs fault, sure. But if the mentor is experienced, and someone worth a shit, they will be riding at >10%, knowing where that n00b is and how they are doing. You took them out there, you get them back… but that’s just how I see it, if that’s calling you out… than post up so we know who you are.

Lets make this simple.

If you find me someone who can legitimately say, "I crashed because the rider in front of me was going too fast" or "I crashed because the leader/mentor didn't explain 'ride your own ride' well enough to me." then I'll hand you the keys to my bike.

That's basically the premise of your whole argument. Meanwhile the whole time I've been trying to explain that the only person responsible for crashing is the rider who crashes.

Do you think I would have any problems finding someone who says their crash is entirely their fault? Would you hand me the keys to your bike if I did? Didn't think so.

Shrek X · 07-06-2009, 09:17 PM

I said that it is the riders responsibility if they crash... damn d00d, are you incapable of a conversation?

this is a conversation about is group rides, and the responsibility of the leaders, especially when it comes to "n00b" rides.

It is my opinion that the leader of a ride takes responsibility of that ride. If he / she is pushing it hard, harder than the experience of all the riders, than they hold responsibility also. you dont agree, thats fine, you want to diss on me because you dont agree with my opinion, your loss...

Originally Posted by mfrankpdx

Lets make this simple.

If you find me someone who can legitimately say, "I crashed because the rider in front of me was going too fast" or "I crashed because the leader/mentor didn't explain 'ride your own ride' well enough to me." then I'll hand you the keys to my bike.

That's basically the premise of your whole argument. Meanwhile the whole time I've been trying to explain that the only person responsible for crashing is the rider who crashes.

Do you think I would have any problems finding someone who says their crash is entirely their fault? Would you hand me the keys to your bike if I did? Didn't think so.

Lee650 · 07-06-2009, 09:43 PM

Originally Posted by Shrek X

It is my opinion that the leader of a ride takes responsibility of that ride. If he / she is pushing it hard, harder than the experience of all the riders, than they hold responsibility also. you dont agree, thats fine, you want to diss on me because you dont agree with my opinion, your loss...

That is where most of us disagree with you. You and every other rider that decides to join a group ride are presumed to be adults and are responsible for their actions. To blame a bad decision a rider makes on the ride leader or the group as a whole is a cop-out and the lamest thing you have said. If you can not control your ego and your throttle then stay away from group rides. If you do something that causes you to crash then learn from it, don't put the blame on someone else. I will be there to help a rider who goes down, as I've done many times, but will not assume the blame for his crash.

SpeedGeek · 07-06-2009, 10:13 PM

Lee and Shrek...

I see and understand both your sides...
The ride leader does "set the tone or pace for the ride", and they should try to be aware of the riders in the group and lead accordingly... HOWEVER, that doesn't make them completely responsible if one of those people crash. each rider is responsible for their own actions.

Now granted, a leader can totally set a pace and "mood" for the ride which "sucks in an inexperienced rider" and can be a factor in WHY the new rider gets in trouble, but at the same time, it is ultimately the riders fault if he crashes.

Shrek, you haven't been on any of Lee's rides - while I have been on many (and I used to lead rides "back in the day") and can attest to Lee STRESSING:
"It is NOT a race"
Ride within your abilities
WAIT for the rider behind you at the next corner and try to keep them in your mirrors (at least on occasion)
DO NOT Crash... we have nothing to prove to each other

I have also been on rides where it was a mess and I was surprised everyone made it home in one piece. "Ass hattery" by the ride leader, chest thumping, yadda yadda yadda. So with that in mind, I can see Shrek's perspective and how a leader could set a pace and get a newer rider in trouble. Peer pressure can be a powerful thing and sportbikers (by nature of the sport) tend to be a more competitive group of people.

There are ALL kinds of group rides and "Ride Leaders".. .many of which shouldn't even ride in groups at all. You simply cannot lump them all together.
In the end, each rider is responsible for his own actions. The ride leader is responsible for the ride route, and setting the tone of the ride - even if that means WHO is invited. But that doesn't make him LIABLE for the members of the group.

Now I tend to wear the guilt if a rider crashes or gets lost on one of my rides. I over analyze my pace, route etc... trying to make it fast enough to be fun for the quicker riders without them being bored, but not dragging a newer rider into the ditch - a fine line to walk. I decided I have more fun with smaller groups where I KNOW the skills of every rider. I applaud Lee for his patience and how he handles the group thing.

If all the leaders were like Lee (or a couple others), we wouldn't be having this discussion at all. Unfortunately any squid can post a ride and give a pre ride speech. That doesn't make him a RIDE LEADER.

Shrek, I totally encourage you to join me on one of Lee's group ride anytime. We can discuss your experience over beers.

Shrek X · 07-06-2009, 10:18 PM

And I agree, from a rider point of view, you are correct it is up to the individual to take responsibility for themselves.

but there are two views here...

From a ride leader point of view, I personally take into account those in my group and their ability and think thats the mentality that a leader has to take when leading a group. Leaving someone out of sight, someone getting passed left and right, something is very broken in that scenario especially in one of the advertised "n00b" rides. Doesn't seem like a n00b ride to me, someone out on the road, going slow, everyone out of sight on unknown roads.... not something I would do or do I think its cool if anyone else does.

as for "lamest thing I have said"... whatever...

Originally Posted by Lee650

That is where most of us disagree with you. You and every other rider that decides to join a group ride are presumed to be adults and are responsible for their actions. To blame a bad decision a rider makes on the ride leader or the group as a whole is a cop-out and the lamest thing you have said. If you can not control your ego and your throttle then stay away from group rides. If you do something that causes you to crash then learn from it, don't put the blame on someone else. I will be there to help a rider who goes down, as I've done many times, but will not assume the blame for his crash.

Shrek X · 07-06-2009, 10:27 PM

Originally Posted by SpeedGeek

We can discuss your experience over beers.

I am not pointing to anyone directly, some are taking direct offense to my comments, I have ridden with very few in Pdx so I cant say who does what.

I am absolutely positive (as you, and others whom I have gotten mails from, have said) there are people leading and calling themselves mentors or ride leaders who shouldn't be... I can also say that because its that way no matter where you are, its the nature of the beast ... a bunch of testosterone pumping pee brains trying to show how cool they are on way over powered machines... I know this because I was one and know it exists.

As for the ride and the beer, 1st one is on me.

Lee650 · 07-06-2009, 10:32 PM

Originally Posted by Shrek X

as for "lamest thing I have said"... whatever...

Sorry about that, I haven't read all your post so maybe that wasn't the lamest.

Come join us on a Thur evening ride sometime. The pizza at the end of the ride is worth it.

Shrek X · 07-06-2009, 10:51 PM

Originally Posted by Lee650

Sorry about that, I haven't read all your post so maybe that wasn't the lamest.

Come join us on a Thur evening ride sometime. The pizza at the end of the ride is worth it.

I am sure someone out there has a tally someplace...

I will try, weekdays are typically a little busy, but like pizza almost as much as beer... whats the name of the place? My favorite pizza place just closed

Transported · 07-07-2009, 04:15 AM

Originally Posted by Shrek X

My problem comes in with “mentors” setting up rides, telling the n00bs to “ride your own ride”, and taking off into the distance. Anyone with a half a brain knows those n00bs are going to try to keep up… is that the n00bs fault, sure. But if the mentor is experienced, and someone worth a shit, they will be riding at >10%, knowing where that n00b is and how they are doing. You took them out there, you get them back… but that’s just how I see it, if that’s calling you out… than post up so we know who you are.

OK. Well, then I finally know you're not talking about me or the mentors who come on my mentor rides, because we don't ride off into the distance. We ride in front of our mentees at a nice, easy pace or else we ride behind to observe the mentee at the mentee's chosen pace.

Shrek X · 07-07-2009, 06:54 AM

d00d, I am not talking about any one specifically because I don't know anyone well enough.

What I do know is that this shit takes place, and it takes place here in Portland (I know this through several private emails and conversations).
If you have the creds to be a teacher on two wheels and do so responsibly, drive on.
If not, your a egotistical waste and put everyone at risk

you can judge for yourself which category you fit into

Maybe it makes sense for the mentors to post up their creds to be reviewed by the community?

Mr. P · 07-07-2009, 08:01 AM

Originally Posted by Shrek X

...
Maybe it makes sense for the mentors to post up their creds to be reviewed by the community?

I further that by proposing all bonafide "certified" mentors change their avatar to the below (or add in their signature). This will help the newer riders identify who they can take seriously, and who has one too many helpings of themselves at dinner.

**As you can see, my avatar and signature remain unchanged

MMAGuy1970 · 07-07-2009, 08:04 AM

Shrek X · 07-07-2009, 08:06 AM

now thats good shit there....

mfrankpdx · 07-07-2009, 08:08 AM

Originally Posted by Mr. P

I further that by proposing all bonafide "certified" mentors change their avatar to the below (or add in their signature). This will help the newer riders identify who they can take seriously, and who has one too many helpings of themselves at dinner.

**As you can see, my avatar and signature remain unchanged

Mr. P · 07-07-2009, 08:13 AM

Originally Posted by mfrankpdx

***CERTIFIED***

Shrek X · 07-07-2009, 08:23 AM

^^ needs a cred thread

pv2 · 07-07-2009, 09:01 AM

Originally Posted by Soil

Notice a lot of 'instinct' and 'common sense' thoughts floating around out here these days...

first - I mean NO insult to ANYONE, nor am I questioning any ONE person's common sense or instincts...

BUT - 'following' your instincts or your 'common sense' is not always the smart thing to do... (well published example: Marshall - He was following his instincts and common sense and tried to keep up. Bad decision)

There are a few things in life where 'common sense' and 'instincts' are not naturally the best things to do. Survival Reactions discussion - (if you don't know what I am talking about, ASK ME!!!!!) On a bike, your NATURAL HUMAN INSTINCTS are almost always the wrong thing to do.

my point: I think that a LOT of the crashes that happen, happen because the rider doesn't know what he (she) doesn't know - specifically when your natural human survival instincts are just wrong. And obviously not knowing that, leads to not knowing what the right thing to do is...

crash.

JUST when you think 'I got this'! I understand - I have overcome the challenge! I figured it out! BLAM! new mirror and exhaust and rear set needed! (and that was a GREAT crash!)

PLEASE slow down ya'll!

Please Soil:
Osmosis method has always been a great one for learning.
Like sun stikeing the leaves of a plant,
One should just use common sense and observation to "GET" the proper method of riding.

Natural, Instinctive methods yes!!!

Perhaps Reading too?

Experience =
Losing a bike or two
Hospital Visits or ....... Visits like the MJ Memorial?
Big Eyes, Grab controls, Fixate, Late braking, ...... Eventualities

Realty Sets In.......
Combat Arms Military: Stresses Training, Situational Drills, etc.

Kinda keeps your people from Injury and Death of self and unintended.

There is a war going out there on the roads.
THey are all trying to kill you! Through Negligence You are trying to kill you!
Best get some training.

pv2


07-05-2009, 09:28 PM	#161
307T Zone Head Joined: Jan 2007 From: Washington County I Ride: Harley custom	So then, five pages of suggestions, stories, slings and arrows, moderator involvement and some creative trolling with pictures. Went through the whole damned mess and didn't ever see that the original poster put up a time and place for his suggested meeting. Yeah, that'll work. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


07-06-2009, 10:02 AM	#166
pdxnathan Pit Crew Joined: Mar 2009 From: hillsboro I Ride: white ducati m1100s	For what little it's worth, I'll share my limited personal experience with group rides. I really don't even like this thread, because I don't like seeing good people who I know in person rip each other online, when they wouldn't act that way in person at all. But I realized the other day that from all this discussion, I am getting some confirmation of my own feelings on group rides. This in turn makes me better able to follow my own instincts on this subject. So, if I can help someone else trust his or her own judgement by sharing my opinions, then I owe it to at least put my thoughts out there, know what I mean? So... 1) for me, a big group ride is distracting, confusing, and a little overwhelming. it can be tempting to do stuff I wouldn't normally do, to push my comfort envelope, or just to lose focus on riding well. 2) for me, a small group of 3-4 people max where I know the riding skills and style of people in the group is the exact opposite: I feel more comfortable knowing that someone has my back, I get tips like debris pointers, I get to see someone whose "pace" I know, and who has ridden the route before, head into a turn ahead of me... all these things make me a better and safer rider without distracting me. but that said, I still find myself occasionally riding a little faster than I would by myself because I'm having fun with a friend. I'm not saying big group rides are "bad" or anything, I only know that I trust my own instincts, and my experience so far is that I feel much less comfortable riding in a big group than that a small group. If someone out there is feeling the same way, I encourage you to follow those instincts and avoid big group rides. On the other hand if this goes totally against your experience, well then I encourage you to follow your own instincts on this one, and do what makes you a more comfortable and confident and safer rider. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


07-06-2009, 11:06 AM	#167
Soil Zone Head Joined: Mar 2008 From: Beaverton, OR - CLAY I Ride: K6 GSXR 1K	Notice a lot of 'instinct' and 'common sense' thoughts floating around out here these days... first - I mean NO insult to ANYONE, nor am I questioning any ONE person's common sense or instincts... BUT - 'following' your instincts or your 'common sense' is not always the smart thing to do... (well published example: Marshall - He was following his instincts and common sense and tried to keep up. Bad decision) There are a few things in life where 'common sense' and 'instincts' are not naturally the best things to do. Survival Reactions discussion - (if you don't know what I am talking about, ASK ME!!!!!) On a bike, your NATURAL HUMAN INSTINCTS are almost always the wrong thing to do. my point: I think that a LOT of the crashes that happen, happen because the rider doesn't know what he (she) doesn't know - specifically when your natural human survival instincts are just wrong. And obviously not knowing that, leads to not knowing what the right thing to do is... crash. JUST when you think 'I got this'! I understand - I have overcome the challenge! I figured it out! BLAM! new mirror and exhaust and rear set needed! (and that was a GREAT crash!) PLEASE slow down ya'll! __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


07-06-2009, 11:16 AM	#168
pdxnathan Pit Crew Joined: Mar 2009 From: hillsboro I Ride: white ducati m1100s	Soil, I agree that in-the-moment "SRs" are usually totally wrong. Those aren't the instincts I was talking about. I believe that going into a situation, if I feel uneasy, or if during a ride, I feel like I'm pushing it, that I should trust that instinct or judgement. Usually when I've gotten into a bad situation, I had some reservations going in (or flat out knew it was a bad idea) and I didn't pay enough attention to my own judgement, instead going forward on pride, stubborn-ness, on group-think, or whatever. So I'm just trying to encourage people to pay attention to their "spidey-sense". If they feel like they are getting in over their heads or they feel uncomfortable or distracted, don't just ignore that and soldier on. Stop and assess and if needed, leave the situation. Or, like you said, SLOW DOWN __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


07-06-2009, 01:33 PM	#172
Zygoat Training Wheels Joined: Jul 2005 From: Portland, OR I Ride: Piano Bike	Priority check: this thread has over 2,000+ views and the california thread has almost 300. Less yabber yabber and more ridey ridey! __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter

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07-06-2009, 01:41 PM	#173
ninja-rida Zone Head Joined: Apr 2008 From: Da Hood I Ride: 2006 ZX-6R	__________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


07-06-2009, 04:16 PM	#178
XcaptainXbloodX Pit Crew Joined: Jan 2009 From: Portland,OR I Ride: S2R 800	still would like to know when this meeting is going to happen. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter Last edited by XcaptainXbloodX; 07-06-2009 at 04:18 PM..


07-06-2009, 05:00 PM	#181
kmannth Pit Crew Joined: Jun 2008 From: Portland Oregon I Ride: 01 Speed Triple/Suzuki RF900 95	Fu$% that. Inexperienced riders need to take responsibility for their own actions. I really hate to see people wreck and F up but I (or others on the ride) am in no way shape or form responsible for the actions of OTHERS. Many on this forum take GREAT effort to help out new riders. Many rides are at the new rider pace; they are pretty well called out in the posts for them. Many rides would accommodate a new rider pace at the back of the line no problems. You can take a horse to water but you can't make it drink. The Mentor things this is going on is not a mentor speeding off into the distance and causing the rider they are with to crash. I have seen all sorts of dumb things on group rides, doesn't mean I do anything that is outside of my comfort zone. I am sure some people feel I ride dumb at times. Who cares, we all ride our own ride. All of the crashes I have seen this year (3x) were not at speeds that were illigal (to the best of my knowledge). People are not out there showing folks how to knee drag on the street.... If new riders can't keep it in their pants they are going to get hurt; group ride or solo ride, gear or no gear, sport or cruiser, track or street. Did everyone read that ok? If riders can't be big boys and girls and ride within THEIR limits they have a much greater chance of crashing, getting hurt and sadly dying. For some riders the risk of expanding their limits is worth the reward, it is all personal choice. Personal responsibility is REQUIRED of all riders. If you spend much time on this forum you might assume everyone crashes all the time quite badly. It should scare you away from riding motorcycles in general and for sure attending any rides posted here. They are dangerous and it can kill you. RIP fallen riders. Personally whenever I encounter new riders to the group I tell them to ride their own ride and to take their time, we won't leave you behind and we are just cruising. Sometimes those riders end up in front of me, sometimes behind. I have never once on any PNW ride heard anyone say "Would you please speed up you are slowing the group down?" I have most definitely heard "It really looks like you are riding over your head, maybe you should slow down?" If the damages is just there is the pressure of riding with others and to "keep up" the only solution is not to have rides posted on this forum. For some riders just getting to the ride is too dangerous. Have Fun and Be Safe! __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


07-06-2009, 05:19 PM	#182
saltlick Pit Crew Joined: Mar 2009 From: Beaverton, Oregon I Ride: Buell Lightning XB9S	i was new to group rides as of last season. First group ride i went on sucked. People passed me so fast right in the beginning it scared the crap out of me when they buzzed by. I lost sight of all of them within a few minutes. I had no idea if i was suppose to keep up or not. My first group ride and no one spoke of "ride your own ride" at the gathering before hand. This ride wasnt with anyone on this board. So i tried to keep up, or at least keep them in my sights. I was FOR SURE riding out of my comfort zone. I was riding with people that were almost putting thier knees down on every turn and it was going through the backroads on 47 up to Scappose then Ranier. I almost lost it twice around turns then figured forget it, ill just go my own pace and if i dont see them at the next stop sign then fuck em. I dont want to ride with them anyways. Next stop sign there they were off thier bikes waiting for me, when i showed up no one said anything, one guy said in a disgusted voice "gee, guess your not use carvin the canyons are you?" then they split again and i lost them again within 10 seconds. I wound up finishing the ride on my own and didnt really know the path home but found it. Now that i know whats up, i look back at that and think what a bunch of ass hats those guys were. I can see how newbies can crash on thier first run, they dont want to look stupid and go beyond thier abilities. Not sure how to avoid that....no one wants to be the last guy that is holding people up, especially when your new. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


07-06-2009, 10:13 PM	#187
SpeedGeek Zone Head Joined: Jan 2007 From: Lake Osghetto, OR I Ride: whenever I can	Lee and Shrek... I see and understand both your sides... The ride leader does "set the tone or pace for the ride", and they should try to be aware of the riders in the group and lead accordingly... HOWEVER, that doesn't make them completely responsible if one of those people crash. each rider is responsible for their own actions. Now granted, a leader can totally set a pace and "mood" for the ride which "sucks in an inexperienced rider" and can be a factor in WHY the new rider gets in trouble, but at the same time, it is ultimately the riders fault if he crashes. Shrek, you haven't been on any of Lee's rides - while I have been on many (and I used to lead rides "back in the day") and can attest to Lee STRESSING: "It is NOT a race" Ride within your abilities WAIT for the rider behind you at the next corner and try to keep them in your mirrors (at least on occasion) DO NOT Crash... we have nothing to prove to each other I have also been on rides where it was a mess and I was surprised everyone made it home in one piece. "Ass hattery" by the ride leader, chest thumping, yadda yadda yadda. So with that in mind, I can see Shrek's perspective and how a leader could set a pace and get a newer rider in trouble. Peer pressure can be a powerful thing and sportbikers (by nature of the sport) tend to be a more competitive group of people. There are ALL kinds of group rides and "Ride Leaders".. .many of which shouldn't even ride in groups at all. You simply cannot lump them all together. In the end, each rider is responsible for his own actions. The ride leader is responsible for the ride route, and setting the tone of the ride - even if that means WHO is invited. But that doesn't make him LIABLE for the members of the group. Now I tend to wear the guilt if a rider crashes or gets lost on one of my rides. I over analyze my pace, route etc... trying to make it fast enough to be fun for the quicker riders without them being bored, but not dragging a newer rider into the ditch - a fine line to walk. I decided I have more fun with smaller groups where I KNOW the skills of every rider. I applaud Lee for his patience and how he handles the group thing. If all the leaders were like Lee (or a couple others), we wouldn't be having this discussion at all. Unfortunately any squid can post a ride and give a pre ride speech. That doesn't make him a RIDE LEADER. Shrek, I totally encourage you to join me on one of Lee's group ride anytime. We can discuss your experience over beers. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


07-07-2009, 06:54 AM	#193
Shrek X Mr. 500,000 Joined: Dec 2006 From: Portland I Ride: VTX	d00d, I am not talking about any one specifically because I don't know anyone well enough. What I do know is that this shit takes place, and it takes place here in Portland (I know this through several private emails and conversations). If you have the creds to be a teacher on two wheels and do so responsibly, drive on. If not, your a egotistical waste and put everyone at risk you can judge for yourself which category you fit into Maybe it makes sense for the mentors to post up their creds to be reviewed by the community? __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


07-07-2009, 08:04 AM	#195
MMAGuy1970 Zone Head Joined: Apr 2007 From: Out of your mind I Ride: like it’s gonna rain tomorrow.	^ __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


07-07-2009, 08:06 AM	#196
Shrek X Mr. 500,000 Joined: Dec 2006 From: Portland I Ride: VTX	now thats good shit there.... __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


07-07-2009, 08:23 AM	#199
Shrek X Mr. 500,000 Joined: Dec 2006 From: Portland I Ride: VTX	^^ needs a cred thread __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter

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