PNW Riders

Sentor · 07-01-2009, 08:13 PM

There's only so much you can talk about, communicate and bullsh!t about over a forum and I think it's time to come together with some suggestions that will make our group rides more organized, more efficient and allow us to never leave another rider behind.

I was up front on the ride that Marshall went down on, with a passenger, traveling at an accelerated speed. I make no excuses for what happened and I make no apologies for anything that I did, or we did. The only thing I can do is learn from my mistakes and do something to help not only myself and future ride leaders, no matter who they are.

This is just an idea for people who want to learn to effectively manage THEIR group rides, not everyone's. If you don't want to come, or participate, or organize this way, then don't.

What I Propose:

A meeting, maybe at Ava, on a night where we can gather a group, with a solid agenda for the meeting and tools to effectively manage group rides.

A sample agenda would be:

-Introduction of the speakers
-What the responsibilities of an event organizer would be
-What personality types should head the group
-What is required for gathering everyone at a central location.

-Briefing the crowd of folks, and why it's important
-Agenda for the ride, and what to expect. Where stopping points are.
-Communicating expectations
...ride your own ride
...don't try to catch up
...waiting at corners/turns
...when to kick someone out of the group
...what your expectations are of everyone ON YOUR RIDE, and if they don't like it, get the F out.

-When to split into groups, and what that entails for a 2nd leader / sweep.
-How to split groups and the importance of emphasizing skill level and experience.
...do these people know the road?
-Choosing a 2nd leader/sweep

-Confrontation of deviants
...when and how to confront
.......not doing it while everyone is watching - pull them aside
...how to organize a confrontation
.......measurable facts
.......actual observations, not here-say, or grabbing the person who actually has seen the event occur (wheelies, passing on the right, blah blah blah.)
...how to hit the point home
...if it doesn't go so well

This is just a sample. What I need, and will be creating within the next few days are tools to assist group leaders that may want these:

I need ideas on what to include in the following:

-Checklist for planning a group ride
-How to post a group ride that anyone can join in
-Checklist for Organizing the people at the event.
...Leaders present, able and willing.
...Have you communicated X, Y, Z
...headcount (i know i count sometimes, and forget after a few hours on bigger group rides.)

I know that I forget information, haven't learned everything, or just plain mess up at times. This will give not only myself as a ride leader an opportunity to learn, but allow for others to gain experienced knowledge, information and keep people at home safe.

Ayris Vashu · 07-01-2009, 08:28 PM

As a ride leader, you have my agreement and full support Matt.

Just say when and I'll be there.

Sentor · 07-01-2009, 08:32 PM

Oh, and I am not the greatest group ride leader, but I can present good information from this effectively and in an organized manner, but if someone wants to spearhead this with me, as a PRESENTER, let me know.

dscott3509 · 07-01-2009, 08:35 PM

A thought from a new rider who hasn't been on any group rides, maybe get the coordinators for the mentor/menteee rides to chip in thoughts. I would think some concepts would carry over to rides with more experienced riders.

ninjarider · 07-01-2009, 08:38 PM

as long as I don't have to work I would go to this. though I don't lead many rides I still like to know what's going on and be able to help out. everything that I have learned from ride leading I have learned from this forum and the rides I have been on with all of you

Sentor · 07-01-2009, 08:40 PM

As an organizer of a group ride, it may not be good management to incorporate training into the organization of the event. Small talk is fine, but a mentor/mentee ride is a place to teach someone some new skills.

If you try and overload yourself with information and more items to discuss, you'll probably just end up neglecting the organization of the ride (it's more fun to talk about how to improve or how to better ride).

Being a ride leader isn't easy, and it's not always fun, but comes with a rather large responsibility, especially if it's open to anyone.

BoricuaBusa · 07-01-2009, 08:40 PM

This is a great idea.....and I'll love to go, while I have never been a "Big group" leader, I'm usually the swiper....

Also,

I;m willing to allow a group into a very nice Conference room in Tektronix equip with everyhitng you'll need. Just let me know.

ninjarider · 07-01-2009, 08:42 PM

Originally Posted by BoricuaBusa

This is a great idea.....and I'll love to go, while I have never been a "Big group" leader, I'm usually the swiper....

Also,

I;m willing to allow a group into a very nice Conference room in Tektronix equip with everyhitng you'll need. Just let me know.

...is that allowed?

BoricuaBusa · 07-01-2009, 08:45 PM

Originally Posted by ninjarider

...is that allowed?

Did you forgot my posision there?

trunkmonkey · 07-01-2009, 08:53 PM

I've lead a few and swept a few. I'll join in for this depending on when.

krazyone44 · 07-01-2009, 09:15 PM

Hey Matt, remember that Windy Ridge ride a couple years back. That sucked eh. I fail as leader.

Jerry

Ayris Vashu · 07-01-2009, 09:20 PM

Matt, as I told you via facebook, the sooner this happens the better.
I agree we should all meet as ride leaders, if anything, just to get on the same page.

Also, not to offend anyone, but I think this really needs to focus on us riders who currently take on the extra responsibility of leading or sweeping group rides. And I think, Matt, we need to extend specific invitations to certain riders that we both know are integral parts of the Portland area group rides.

I hate to sound preachy, but it needs to stay simple and to the point. The focus should be ride leaders talking to each other about stuff, not teaching others who have never had the extra responsibility to learn how to lead group rides.

mfrankpdx · 07-01-2009, 09:41 PM

Ride leaders are just people. Each one is different. I don't think we need to set up some kind of "protocol" for ride leaders to follow. No offense, but I'm going to do things my way, and if people don't like it, they don't have to come on my rides. Furthermore, I want every ride leader to be free to do things in whatever way they choose.

Transported · 07-01-2009, 10:18 PM

^^^Deviant.

FZ6Rider · 07-01-2009, 10:39 PM

I'd like to participate in the "meeting" if my schedule alows me to.

Originally Posted by mfrankpdx

Ride leaders are just people. Each one is different. I don't think we need to set up some kind of "protocol" for ride leaders to follow. No offense, but I'm going to do things my way, and if people don't like it, they don't have to come on my rides. Furthermore, I want every ride leader to be free to do things in whatever way they choose.

Mark also has a good point; if you really hate the way someone leads than dont come to those rides or you can always ride in front of a sweep and call it good. My $0.02

TMMR · 07-01-2009, 10:53 PM

Originally Posted by Sentor

There's only so much you can talk about, communicate and bullsh!t about over a forum and I think it's time to come together with some suggestions that will make our group rides more organized, more efficient and allow us to never leave another rider behind.

I was up front on the ride that Marshall went down on, with a passenger, traveling at an accelerated speed. I make no excuses for what happened and I make no apologies for anything that I did, or we did. The only thing I can do is learn from my mistakes and do something to help not only myself and future ride leaders, no matter who they are.

This is just an idea for people who want to learn to effectively manage THEIR group rides, not everyone's. If you don't want to come, or participate, or organize this way, then don't.

What I Propose:

A meeting, maybe at Ava, on a night where we can gather a group, with a solid agenda for the meeting and tools to effectively manage group rides.

A sample agenda would be:

-Introduction of the speakers
-What the responsibilities of an event organizer would be
-What personality types should head the group
-What is required for gathering everyone at a central location.

-Briefing the crowd of folks, and why it's important
-Agenda for the ride, and what to expect. Where stopping points are.
-Communicating expectations
...ride your own ride
...don't try to catch up
...waiting at corners/turns
...when to kick someone out of the group
...what your expectations are of everyone ON YOUR RIDE, and if they don't like it, get the F out.

-When to split into groups, and what that entails for a 2nd leader / sweep.
-How to split groups and the importance of emphasizing skill level and experience.
...do these people know the road?
-Choosing a 2nd leader/sweep

-Confrontation of deviants
...when and how to confront
.......not doing it while everyone is watching - pull them aside
...how to organize a confrontation
.......measurable facts
.......actual observations, not here-say, or grabbing the person who actually has seen the event occur (wheelies, passing on the right, blah blah blah.)
...how to hit the point home
...if it doesn't go so well

This is just a sample. What I need, and will be creating within the next few days are tools to assist group leaders that may want these:

I need ideas on what to include in the following:

-Checklist for planning a group ride
-How to post a group ride that anyone can join in
-Checklist for Organizing the people at the event.
...Leaders present, able and willing.
...Have you communicated X, Y, Z
...headcount (i know i count sometimes, and forget after a few hours on bigger group rides.)

I know that I forget information, haven't learned everything, or just plain mess up at times. This will give not only myself as a ride leader an opportunity to learn, but allow for others to gain experienced knowledge, information and keep people at home safe.

I know sometimes I am the outsider looking in. ..............................

I think that the leaders of these groups do a great job organizing and making the rides happen and making sure it is as fun and safe as possible --
but sometimes when things go wrong -- everyone moves forward on emotion.

I think that you are started on some great ideas.

When you do your talk at the beginning of the run -- talk about the what ifs -- some may be good what ifs and some are the bad what ifs.

what if the groups gets to large -- do we break into smaller groups with more leaders?

what if it is a small group -- to who's ability do you ride ??

How do we help the noobies without over riding thier abilities?

what if a rider goes down? who will stay with the rider ? What are you going to do with the bike?

what about the bike ? has a flat? or has a cable break? how does one get the bike back home -- without leaving it on the side of the road and hoping it is there when you come back?

What if .................

I wish nothing bad against everyone -- but sometimes having a plan that you never have to execute is the best plan.

Shrek X · 07-01-2009, 11:07 PM

damn, I think thats the first thing you have ever written here I agree with.

yall makin it way to complicated with all these rules and guidelines. try riding instead of street racing for a change, maybe that will make your rides safer.

I think yall have your leathers on to tight thinkin your that important to have all these rules and guidelines, not to mention some of the people who are leaders or mentors... but have at it

Originally Posted by mfrankpdx

Ride leaders are just people. Each one is different. I don't think we need to set up some kind of "protocol" for ride leaders to follow. No offense, but I'm going to do things my way, and if people don't like it, they don't have to come on my rides. Furthermore, I want every ride leader to be free to do things in whatever way they choose.

Transported · 07-01-2009, 11:14 PM

Without protocol, there are going to be mistakes made, things falling through the cracks. Even with protocols, we are going to be dealing with the unexpected. With them, we at least have best practices we can groom and improve as new facts (such as Monday) come to light.

We aren't a club, but bicycle clubs I've belonged to required helmets and a few other items, and if you showed up without proper gear and rode in a dangerous manner, you were asked to leave.

I'm not sure we have to go that far. But, it is not unprecedented or out of the question that participants have general expectations placed upon them.

The problem with each ride leader having his or her own style is you only discover that style when you show up for their ride, when it is likely too late. You may discover you never want to go on a ride with that person again, but it could prove to be a very unpleasant (not to mention hazardous) learning experience.

Shrek X · 07-01-2009, 11:21 PM

as I say, the problem isnt the riders or the leaders, its the fact that you all turn it into a race. I have been on rides that had 100+ riders, no problem, everyone just rolls, I have lead rides with 50+, we just rolled, some common sense, old riders watch new riders (no instructions, its just what you do).

problem here isnt the ride, its how you ride. gonna treat it like its a race, your gonna crash, especially you spark plugs that keep takin the n00bs back in the hills trying to show how good you are and getting all fuzzy you showed someone with 4 months seat time you were faster in some corner

Transported · 07-01-2009, 11:45 PM

Lots of folks come out on performance machines exactly to learn how to get the most joy out of them on the road. Some come out "just to roll." People on standard bikes who like to ride in a standard manner will probably learn to gravitate toward the ride leaders who lead the way they like to ride.

Maybe we need to be more specific when posting rides, so that everyone knows exactly what to expect.

But, we also need to have standards so that if someone stumbles into the wrong ride, they won't be left high and dry.

Shrek X · 07-01-2009, 11:54 PM

Originally Posted by Transported

Lots of folks come out on performance machines exactly to learn how to get the most joy out of them on the road. Some come out "just to roll." People on standard bikes who like to ride in a standard manner will probably learn to gravitate toward the ride leaders who lead the way they like to ride.

Maybe we need to be more specific when posting rides, so that everyone knows exactly what to expect.

But, we also need to have standards so that if someone stumbles into the wrong ride, they won't be left high and dry.

just out of curiosity, how many big rides have you been on? they aint complex, you ride, you go down the road, you check shit out, you stop, you laugh, you repeat.

yea, there are basic hand signals, etc etc etc... they get those at the laugh and repeat part. you obey the traffic laws and have a good time, follow the d00d in front of you, pretty simple

granted, making them complex gives a social power structure, and enjoy that one... but its basically going to the same place on the same road

unless of course your racing on the road - which is what your talking about, and you can make up all the rules you want around that, and your still going to end up with people burning in over and over and over again, yall cant handle it.

307T · 07-01-2009, 11:55 PM

Originally Posted by Transported

Lots of folks come out on performance machines exactly to learn how to get the most joy out of them on the road.

That's a pretty creative and poetic way of describing some of these rides. I think Shrek's point is that it is often more about rider to rider comparison than it is about understanding a machine's capabilities.

[Damn it, I really was going to stay the fock out of this

]

lena · 07-01-2009, 11:56 PM

Originally Posted by mfrankpdx

Ride leaders are just people. Each one is different. I don't think we need to set up some kind of "protocol" for ride leaders to follow. No offense, but I'm going to do things my way, and if people don't like it, they don't have to come on my rides. Furthermore, I want every ride leader to be free to do things in whatever way they choose.

I have to mostly agree with Mark. This is just a forum. Anyone can post a public ride, anyone can show up, that's just how it works. Some people are better organizers than others, eventually you learn who you want to ride with and you stick to it. I would love to have that assurance that every ride leader knows what they are supposed to do. Who wouldn't?

My best hope is, just like with the accidents stats thread, that someone, at least one person will learn from this and do it right the next time. It's very sad that it had to come at such high price. Hopefully it will never be forgotten.

Here is another word of caution. This note is to the riders that show up to newbie rides or listen to some advice: pay attention who you want to pay attention to! At least ask first how many miles that person has under their belt, before you take any advice. Or get a recommendation, if you don't know them. This is not directed at anyone in particular but a general note.

Sentor, I do think you are making it a bit too complicated in the heat of the moment. Great idea, but lets simplify. If there is a meeting set up, I will try to show up.

lena · 07-01-2009, 11:58 PM

Shrek and Transported: hash it out in person, not here, would you? Come to the meeting, I wanna hear it!

Shrek X · 07-01-2009, 11:59 PM

Originally Posted by lena

Shrek and Transported: hash it out in person, not here, would you? Come to the meeting, I wanna hear it!

hu?

this is a forum, it is to hash things out or share opinion.

307T · 07-02-2009, 12:00 AM

Originally Posted by lena

This note is to the riders that show up to newbie rides or listen to some advice. [snip] At least ask first how many miles that person has under their belt, before you take any advice. Or get a recommendation, if you don't know them.

Can I get an AMEN?!

lena · 07-02-2009, 12:04 AM

Originally Posted by Shrek X

hu?

this is a forum, it is to hash things out or share opinion.

You're veering off the topic and I would prefer if something constructive came out of this.

Shrek X · 07-02-2009, 12:19 AM

Originally Posted by lena

You're veering off the topic and I would prefer if something constructive came out of this.

Are you speaking as a mod at this point?

I think it is exactly on topic.

The only thing I can do is learn from my mistakes and do something to help not only myself and future ride leaders, no matter who they are.

To that end, I spoke up, giving advice and assessing the real issue here which has nothing to do with how group rides are organized, but more accurately how people ride and how people are showing others to ride on the street.

I realize I am not one of the cool kids around the Portland water cooler, but think I have a pretty good idea why the issues come up. If someone posts something I don't agree with, it is acceptable or even encouraged to speak up... that's the nature of the forum, the interaction.

The constructive part is where some n00b reads this and realizes that he or she doesn't need to be a road racer to be on the road, and that some who hold themselves up as mentors may not be up to the task

mfrankpdx · 07-02-2009, 12:19 AM

Originally Posted by Shrek X

as I say, the problem isnt the riders or the leaders, its the fact that you all turn it into a race. I have been on rides that had 100+ riders, no problem, everyone just rolls, I have lead rides with 50+, we just rolled, some common sense, old riders watch new riders (no instructions, its just what you do).

problem here isnt the ride, its how you ride. gonna treat it like its a race, your gonna crash, especially you spark plugs that keep takin the n00bs back in the hills trying to show how good you are and getting all fuzzy you showed someone with 4 months seat time you were faster in some corner

It's a little more complex than that.

One problem is when riders get together and don't know each others' skill level. One rider's 50% may be another person's 90%. When you get a newbie behind a vet, he/she may not realize the vet is riding well within his/her comfort zone. In order for the newbie to keep up, they have to ride at 95% of their ability. This leaves very little room for error.

It's a good idea to become familiar with others' skill level before departing. It's not very difficult to ask, "so how long have you been riding?" In fact, it's a pretty good ice breaker when you first meet someone.

I don't know what the learning curve for riding a cruiser is, but I don't think it can be compared to riding sport bikes.

Sentor · 07-02-2009, 12:19 AM

This isn't to create a "protocol". I think I made that clear in the first bolded section at the top. This is a template for people that lead rides to work with, and to follow whatever they want.

All I want is to give a good and solid foundation for group leaders that don't have a lot of experience as a lead, and not only that, but it helps me to think about what I miss every time I do it.

I tried to make it plain and clear. This is for people to control THEIR group rides. You can "just roll" or "race", but I want to help the people who enjoy leading a team of guys, aren't sure all the ways they can help guide newer people, and maybe have some order to a generally disorganized street riding sport.

Do whatever you want; it isn't my ride, and if I don't like it, I won't ride.

Shrek X · 07-02-2009, 12:24 AM

your right, but I come back to the original point. if the intent isnt going out to play ricky racer in the first place, it quickly becomes a non-issue. The little room for error, becomes a lot of room for error and a comfortable ride...

which, from what I hear and see, is not what the rides are around here.. .even the n00b rides.

Originally Posted by mfrankpdx

It's a little more complex than that.

One problem is when riders get together and don't know each others' skill level. One rider's 50% may be another person's 90%. When you get a newbie behind a vet, he/she may not realize the vet is riding well within his/her comfort zone. In order for the newbie to keep up, they have to ride at 95% of their ability. This leaves very little room for error.

It's a good idea to become familiar with others' skill level before departing. It's not very difficult to ask, "so how long have you been riding?" In fact, it's a pretty good ice breaker when you first meet someone.

I don't know what the learning curve for riding a cruiser is, but I don't think it can be compared to riding sport bikes.

XcaptainXbloodX · 07-02-2009, 12:26 AM

Id like to come to this.

Im definitely not a ride leader but if you guys want the thoughts/concerns/opinions of someone whose new to group rides id be happy to chime in.

Shrek X · 07-02-2009, 12:26 AM

well, still think its over thinking something that is very simple, but an A+ for the effort and Ill buy you a beer if I make it. like whomever said, if someone takes something good away... so be it

Originally Posted by Sentor

This isn't to create a "protocol". I think I made that clear in the first bolded section at the top. This is a template for people that lead rides to work with, and to follow whatever they want.

All I want is to give a good and solid foundation for group leaders that don't have a lot of experience as a lead, and not only that, but it helps me to think about what I miss every time I do it.

I tried to make it plain and clear. This is for people to control THEIR group rides. You can "just roll" or "race", but I want to help the people who enjoy leading a team of guys, aren't sure all the ways they can help guide newer people, and maybe have some order to a generally disorganized street riding sport.

Do whatever you want; it isn't my ride, and if I don't like it, I won't ride.

Sentor · 07-02-2009, 12:30 AM

Originally Posted by Shrek X

your right, but I come back to the original point. if the intent isnt going out to play ricky racer in the first place, it quickly becomes a non-issue. The little room for error, becomes a lot of room for error and a comfortable ride...

which, from what I hear and see, is not what the rides are around here.. .even the n00b rides.

If I want to ride fast, I ride fast and accept the consequences. I do everything I can not to put anyone else at risk, but my bike and my body are mine.

I don't compete with anyone but myself, and my abilities and I know when to slow it down and I'm going too fast.

If you're risk adverse, that's your own choice, I like taking the risk, and I don't bitch when sh!t doesn't go my way.

The goal here is to get people to ride within their comfort level, and to help them learn that they don't need to compete with anyone. Your comments seem biased to sportbike riders. Come meet with me and some of the people I normally ride with, and you'll start to see that we're not competitive beyond a little smack-talk in a coffee shop.

307T · 07-02-2009, 12:38 AM

Originally Posted by Sentor

If I want to ride fast, I ride fast and accept the consequences. I do everything I can not to put anyone else at risk, but my bike and my body are mine.

I have been known to over-step the legal limit myself but I call BS on your second sentence. Yes, your body is yours but the road is shared with many other motorists. Anytime we, individually or as a group, ride fast we are also putting risks onto other people. It might be that, in passing someone quickly, you startle them and cause them to have an accident. It might be that you have an accident that results in you or your bike hitting someone else's vehicle. As a former emergency responder, I can tell you that there is also an emotional impact when someone has to pick up your remains with a scoop shovel.

Shrek X · 07-02-2009, 12:40 AM

Originally Posted by Sentor

If I want to ride fast, I ride fast and accept the consequences. I do everything I can not to put anyone else at risk, but my bike and my body are mine.

I don't compete with anyone but myself, and my abilities and I know when to slow it down and I'm going too fast.

If you're risk adverse, that's your own choice, I like taking the risk, and I don't bitch when sh!t doesn't go my way.

The goal here is to get people to ride within their comfort level, and to help them learn that they don't need to compete with anyone. Your comments seem biased to sportbike riders. Come meet with me and some of the people I normally ride with, and you'll start to see that we're not competitive beyond a little smack-talk in a coffee shop.

Oh, it is biased to sportbike riders, and I have met a few here, met many many more in Seattle, and many many many riders across the US... although I am always willing and very happy to meet more riders

The thing that raises my eyebrow is .... "here is to get people to ride within their comfort level, and to help them learn that they don't need to compete with anyone"... statements like that make one think you have authority, or knowledge, as your going to be the one helping them learn. This is a predominant attitude here, and it could be good... but seems to go sideways, depending on who is making those statements.

In the n00b rides, who is teaching? what are they teaching? and what are the qualifications for that? from what I hear it is turning into quite an ego trip, ego and a fast bike usually ends bad.

mfrankpdx · 07-02-2009, 12:45 AM

Originally Posted by Shrek X

your right, but I come back to the original point. if the intent isnt going out to play ricky racer in the first place, it quickly becomes a non-issue. The little room for error, becomes a lot of room for error and a comfortable ride...

which, from what I hear and see, is not what the rides are around here.. .even the n00b rides.

The intent isn't to play "ricky racer" (whatever that means, must be a derogatory term cruiser guys use to make themselves feel superior to other riders) or to race. The intent is to get outside, enjoy the open road, see some sights, stop, chat, laugh, etc. like you said. But nobody is able to know what others are feeling when they ride. So you get newbie riding in over his head, white knuckling the bars, and he may think that feeling is totally normal at that speed. He doesn't know how the vet rider feels. Meanwhile, the vet is completely relaxed and enjoying the scenery.

Having never ridden a sport bike, you will never be able to understand the vast difference in sport riding skill one rider can have over another.

Shrek X · 07-02-2009, 12:54 AM

Originally Posted by mfrankpdx

Having never ridden a sport bike, you will never be able to understand the vast difference in sport riding skill one rider can have over another.

you make assumptions that you dont have a clue about.

and yes, playing ricky racer is a derogatory term, for all those guys who think they are fast on the street and try to prove it. doesn't have to do with bike type, but rider type.

but even more interesting around here, are the people who hold themselves up as "mentors".

Sentor · 07-02-2009, 01:01 AM

Originally Posted by Shrek X

Oh, it is biased to sportbike riders, and I have met a few here, met many many more in Seattle, and many many many riders across the US... although I am always willing and very happy to meet more riders

You haven't met me. There's nothing left to say on this issue other than you're more than welcome to. I'm not a guy in seattle, or "a few here".

The thing that raises my eyebrow is .... "here is to get people to ride within their comfort level, and to help them learn that they don't need to compete with anyone"... statements like that make one think you have authority, or knowledge, as your going to be the one helping them learn. This is a predominant attitude here, and it could be good... but seems to go sideways, depending on who is making those statements.
\

It's not an authority or me wanting to teach someone, it's them riding their comfort level and not feeling like they need to keep up. I can only lead a horse to water, not make it drink.

I have no authority, I just want to have fun without accidents. I'm not here to teach anyone anything other than what they want to learn of the following:

a) a basic understanding of group rides and organization
b) how to deal with confrontation (yes, I have been professionally trained with this.)

You have some good points to your argument, but they're clouded by personal feelings and emotions.

mfrankpdx · 07-02-2009, 01:04 AM

Originally Posted by Shrek X

you make assumptions that you dont have a clue about.

Why don't you clue me in then?


07-01-2009, 08:13 PM	#1
Sentor Zone Head Joined: Feb 2006 From: Bend, OR I Ride: 2004 Yamaha R1	Group Ride Leaders Meeting - Planning Process There's only so much you can talk about, communicate and bullsh!t about over a forum and I think it's time to come together with some suggestions that will make our group rides more organized, more efficient and allow us to never leave another rider behind. I was up front on the ride that Marshall went down on, with a passenger, traveling at an accelerated speed. I make no excuses for what happened and I make no apologies for anything that I did, or we did. The only thing I can do is learn from my mistakes and do something to help not only myself and future ride leaders, no matter who they are. This is just an idea for people who want to learn to effectively manage THEIR group rides, not everyone's. If you don't want to come, or participate, or organize this way, then don't. What I Propose: A meeting, maybe at Ava, on a night where we can gather a group, with a solid agenda for the meeting and tools to effectively manage group rides. A sample agenda would be: -Introduction of the speakers -What the responsibilities of an event organizer would be -What personality types should head the group -What is required for gathering everyone at a central location. -Briefing the crowd of folks, and why it's important -Agenda for the ride, and what to expect. Where stopping points are. -Communicating expectations ...ride your own ride ...don't try to catch up ...waiting at corners/turns ...when to kick someone out of the group ...what your expectations are of everyone ON YOUR RIDE, and if they don't like it, get the F out. -When to split into groups, and what that entails for a 2nd leader / sweep. -How to split groups and the importance of emphasizing skill level and experience. ...do these people know the road? -Choosing a 2nd leader/sweep -Confrontation of deviants ...when and how to confront .......not doing it while everyone is watching - pull them aside ...how to organize a confrontation .......measurable facts .......actual observations, not here-say, or grabbing the person who actually has seen the event occur (wheelies, passing on the right, blah blah blah.) ...how to hit the point home ...if it doesn't go so well This is just a sample. What I need, and will be creating within the next few days are tools to assist group leaders that may want these: I need ideas on what to include in the following: -Checklist for planning a group ride -How to post a group ride that anyone can join in -Checklist for Organizing the people at the event. ...Leaders present, able and willing. ...Have you communicated X, Y, Z ...headcount (i know i count sometimes, and forget after a few hours on bigger group rides.) I know that I forget information, haven't learned everything, or just plain mess up at times. This will give not only myself as a ride leader an opportunity to learn, but allow for others to gain experienced knowledge, information and keep people at home safe. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


07-01-2009, 08:28 PM	#2
Ayris Vashu Zone Head Joined: Oct 2007 From: Beaverton I Ride: 2007 Yamaha FZ6 "Kurenai Yozora"	As a ride leader, you have my agreement and full support Matt. Just say when and I'll be there. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


07-01-2009, 08:32 PM	#3
Sentor Zone Head Joined: Feb 2006 From: Bend, OR I Ride: 2004 Yamaha R1	Oh, and I am not the greatest group ride leader, but I can present good information from this effectively and in an organized manner, but if someone wants to spearhead this with me, as a PRESENTER, let me know. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


07-01-2009, 08:35 PM	#4
dscott3509 Pit Crew Joined: Aug 2008 From: Milwaukie I Ride: Triumph Bonneville	A thought from a new rider who hasn't been on any group rides, maybe get the coordinators for the mentor/menteee rides to chip in thoughts. I would think some concepts would carry over to rides with more experienced riders. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


07-01-2009, 08:38 PM	#5
ninjarider Superbiker Joined: Oct 2008 From: Hillsboro I Ride: a green one	as long as I don't have to work I would go to this. though I don't lead many rides I still like to know what's going on and be able to help out. everything that I have learned from ride leading I have learned from this forum and the rides I have been on with all of you __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter

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07-01-2009, 08:40 PM	#6
Sentor Zone Head Joined: Feb 2006 From: Bend, OR I Ride: 2004 Yamaha R1	As an organizer of a group ride, it may not be good management to incorporate training into the organization of the event. Small talk is fine, but a mentor/mentee ride is a place to teach someone some new skills. If you try and overload yourself with information and more items to discuss, you'll probably just end up neglecting the organization of the ride (it's more fun to talk about how to improve or how to better ride). Being a ride leader isn't easy, and it's not always fun, but comes with a rather large responsibility, especially if it's open to anyone. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


07-01-2009, 08:40 PM	#7
BoricuaBusa Streetfighter Joined: Apr 2009 From: Beaverton, OR I Ride: 2004 Hayabusa LE	This is a great idea.....and I'll love to go, while I have never been a "Big group" leader, I'm usually the swiper.... Also, I;m willing to allow a group into a very nice Conference room in Tektronix equip with everyhitng you'll need. Just let me know. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


07-01-2009, 08:53 PM	#10
trunkmonkey WMRRA Qualifier Joined: Jan 2008 From: Beaverton, Oregon I Ride: SV650s	I've lead a few and swept a few. I'll join in for this depending on when. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


07-01-2009, 09:15 PM	#11
krazyone44 Training Wheels Joined: Jul 2007 From: Vancouver, WA I Ride: 07 Daytona 675, Flamin Ninja 2fity	Hey Matt, remember that Windy Ridge ride a couple years back. That sucked eh. I fail as leader. Jerry __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


07-01-2009, 09:20 PM	#12
Ayris Vashu Zone Head Joined: Oct 2007 From: Beaverton I Ride: 2007 Yamaha FZ6 "Kurenai Yozora"	Matt, as I told you via facebook, the sooner this happens the better. I agree we should all meet as ride leaders, if anything, just to get on the same page. Also, not to offend anyone, but I think this really needs to focus on us riders who currently take on the extra responsibility of leading or sweeping group rides. And I think, Matt, we need to extend specific invitations to certain riders that we both know are integral parts of the Portland area group rides. I hate to sound preachy, but it needs to stay simple and to the point. The focus should be ride leaders talking to each other about stuff, not teaching others who have never had the extra responsibility to learn how to lead group rides. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


07-01-2009, 09:41 PM	#13
mfrankpdx Moderator Joined: Jul 2007 From: Portland I Ride: '07 R1, '08 WR250X	Ride leaders are just people. Each one is different. I don't think we need to set up some kind of "protocol" for ride leaders to follow. No offense, but I'm going to do things my way, and if people don't like it, they don't have to come on my rides. Furthermore, I want every ride leader to be free to do things in whatever way they choose. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


07-01-2009, 10:18 PM	#14
Transported MotoGP Champion Joined: Dec 2006 From: Portland, Oregon Blog Entries: 1 I Ride: '99 R1, '80 Suz GS450S	^^^Deviant. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


07-01-2009, 11:14 PM	#18
Transported MotoGP Champion Joined: Dec 2006 From: Portland, Oregon Blog Entries: 1 I Ride: '99 R1, '80 Suz GS450S	Without protocol, there are going to be mistakes made, things falling through the cracks. Even with protocols, we are going to be dealing with the unexpected. With them, we at least have best practices we can groom and improve as new facts (such as Monday) come to light. We aren't a club, but bicycle clubs I've belonged to required helmets and a few other items, and if you showed up without proper gear and rode in a dangerous manner, you were asked to leave. I'm not sure we have to go that far. But, it is not unprecedented or out of the question that participants have general expectations placed upon them. The problem with each ride leader having his or her own style is you only discover that style when you show up for their ride, when it is likely too late. You may discover you never want to go on a ride with that person again, but it could prove to be a very unpleasant (not to mention hazardous) learning experience. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


07-01-2009, 11:21 PM	#19
Shrek X Mr. 500,000 Joined: Dec 2006 From: Portland I Ride: VTX	as I say, the problem isnt the riders or the leaders, its the fact that you all turn it into a race. I have been on rides that had 100+ riders, no problem, everyone just rolls, I have lead rides with 50+, we just rolled, some common sense, old riders watch new riders (no instructions, its just what you do). problem here isnt the ride, its how you ride. gonna treat it like its a race, your gonna crash, especially you spark plugs that keep takin the n00bs back in the hills trying to show how good you are and getting all fuzzy you showed someone with 4 months seat time you were faster in some corner __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


07-01-2009, 11:45 PM	#20
Transported MotoGP Champion Joined: Dec 2006 From: Portland, Oregon Blog Entries: 1 I Ride: '99 R1, '80 Suz GS450S	Lots of folks come out on performance machines exactly to learn how to get the most joy out of them on the road. Some come out "just to roll." People on standard bikes who like to ride in a standard manner will probably learn to gravitate toward the ride leaders who lead the way they like to ride. Maybe we need to be more specific when posting rides, so that everyone knows exactly what to expect. But, we also need to have standards so that if someone stumbles into the wrong ride, they won't be left high and dry. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


07-01-2009, 11:58 PM	#24
lena Moderator Joined: Aug 2007 From: Portland, OR I Ride: Monster 750	Shrek and Transported: hash it out in person, not here, would you? Come to the meeting, I wanna hear it! __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


07-02-2009, 12:19 AM	#30
Sentor Zone Head Joined: Feb 2006 From: Bend, OR I Ride: 2004 Yamaha R1	This isn't to create a "protocol". I think I made that clear in the first bolded section at the top. This is a template for people that lead rides to work with, and to follow whatever they want. All I want is to give a good and solid foundation for group leaders that don't have a lot of experience as a lead, and not only that, but it helps me to think about what I miss every time I do it. I tried to make it plain and clear. This is for people to control THEIR group rides. You can "just roll" or "race", but I want to help the people who enjoy leading a team of guys, aren't sure all the ways they can help guide newer people, and maybe have some order to a generally disorganized street riding sport. Do whatever you want; it isn't my ride, and if I don't like it, I won't ride. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


07-02-2009, 12:26 AM	#32
XcaptainXbloodX Pit Crew Joined: Jan 2009 From: Portland,OR I Ride: S2R 800	Id like to come to this. Im definitely not a ride leader but if you guys want the thoughts/concerns/opinions of someone whose new to group rides id be happy to chime in. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter

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