PNW Riders

pv2 · 09-26-2009, 06:15 PM

I'ts not what you know, it's not what you don't know, it's what you know,
That just ain't so!

A very cool Engineering Prof told me that during our Engineering Economics Class back in my Undergrad back at University of Texas.

I'd think a reason for moto schooling and the reason for Clay's class and being here on forum is to share ideas.

To get unknowns known and to get the Knowns which are actually falsehoods / innacuracies fleshed out and discussed.

We should not attack anyone, but get things discussed.

When Yellowpens mentioned that she did not know how to countersteer, I was a bit shocked. I don't know if that meant that she countersteered without knowing what it was, or if it was that she just never mechanically countersteered.

Glad she shared that and Kudos for the mention.

So I have to ask in the forum, are there others amongst us who are basking in knowledge which may be incomplete, or perhaps dead wrong?

Certainly there is room for improvement in technique and discussion of what optimally works for people in different situations; however, I am a bit shocked when I hear of riders who go out and really don't have the mechanics of what they are doing.

Or very good techniques, however, a gaping hole of death, in their knowledge base till the right moment comes along and... Bang they hit it... and all the cards are stacked, circumstances all aligned such that serious injury or death results.

In my head, one of the utilities of countersteering is that it is the fastest way to maneuver, to swerve, to pull out of a dangerous situation which suddenly comes upon a moto rider.

My Issue:
I remember an incident in a group ride, weighting my foot pegs and i did not quite have the corner and swung wide,

I looked extra hard into the corner and countersteered my way out of what was otherwise a very harsh head-on introduction to a car coming the other way.

My fault and my goof.

No one knew about it, no one could see me dispite having people front and rear, but I smoothly pulled it out of my bag of tricks to avoid an issue.

if i did not have that ability/ knowledge, I could have camoflagued the fact using some other technique,
no one would have known that I did not know,

and if I had hit, no one would have known cause I would likely not be around to share the cause of my fk kup.

So, Kudos to you Yellowpens and Clay for getting an unknown found out and discussed.

Anyone else???

You may not even know it, and this may be a good reason to hang with the ClayMan and get going.

Discuss your technique, what you are doing when you ride, what you are not doing when you ride.

Go out and ride!

Get your unknowns and false beliefs known and ride the shining path to happiness!!!

Perhaps some of our RIPS could have benefitted atleast by some safety orientation from us as a group, but more likely by a hands on ride and eval.

pv2

ishly dashing V2 dude

yellowpens · 09-26-2009, 06:19 PM

obviously i was doing alright without CS.

but damn, it is helpful!
i couldnt believe it!
i talked to one other who said he didnt really know about it until he had about 40,000 miles behind him.
some of us just learn late.

yellowpens · 09-26-2009, 06:22 PM

btw: i know how some of you can be. dont go talking shit.
i'm not embaressed that i didnt know what it was.. most of my miles are commuter.. and the 30 different PNW guys who have taken it upon themselves in the past to critque my slowness and ask me if I'm "OK" when riding, didn't notice that I was missing this critical piece of information, either.
out of my 15,000 miles.. about 11,000 of them are highway type roads...soo... that gives me 4000 miles, many in groups, where i didnt notice other people doing it and nobody noticed me not doing it.
just one of those things.

pv2 · 09-26-2009, 06:26 PM

Originally Posted by yellowpens

obviously i was doing alright without CS.

but damn, it is helpful!
i couldnt believe it!
i talked to one other who said he didnt really know about it until he had about 40,000 miles behind him.
some of us just learn late.

Glad for you that you are not LATE and not a RIP as a result.
I'd have to make a poem for you, and Ms Goldenhair that is not a poem I'd like to make.

If you have not done it already, I suggest you should hang with Clay and discuss the use of countersteering to avoid roadway obsticles and avoiding oncoming vehicles. It is a very important utility to have in your bag of tricks!

Kind of like being Felix the Cat!
When ever he gets in a fix, he reaches into his Bag of Trix!!!

It is a technique I practice when I ride allllll the time.

"WTF is that dude doing? Tourettes syndrome Syndorme on 2 wheels???

Sorry about the Pontificating Big Brother thang but... it is a dent in my nature - care and concern.

p to the v to the Pv2

pv2 · 09-26-2009, 06:28 PM

Originally Posted by yellowpens

btw: i know how some of you can be. dont go talking shit.
i'm not embaressed that i didnt know what it was.. most of my miles are commuter.. and the 30 different PNW guys who have taken it upon themselves in the past to critque my slowness and ask me if I'm "OK" when riding, didn't notice that I was missing this critical piece of information, either.
out of my 15,000 miles.. about 11,000 of them are highway type roads...soo... that gives me 4000 miles, many in groups, where i didnt notice other people doing it and nobody noticed me not doing it.
just one of those things.

Again someone attacking stifles sharing, conversation, and us being real about what we know and don't know. Again, glad you have one solidly in the known column KUDOS!

yellowpens · 09-26-2009, 06:32 PM

Part of me is ...how the hell did i not know that...? but.. if nobody else ever told me and i never thought "Hey, let me look up ways to steer my bike" then.. how would i know, right?
Yes.. I took and passed TO.. but thats a whole other story in and of itself.
oh- and clay and i did practice.. well.. he sent me down the hill a couple hundred times to practice by myself- how to use it to avoid stuff. i feel "in the know"

dwschultzy · 09-26-2009, 06:32 PM

cs'ing is part of riding anything on two wheels....whether you know you're doing it or not...you are

yellowpens · 09-26-2009, 06:35 PM

Originally Posted by dwschultzy

cs'ing is part of riding anything on two wheels....whether you know you're doing it or not...you are

yes... but not as efficiently as i could be!

Rippn · 09-26-2009, 07:01 PM

YOUR LEGS ON FIRE... REALLY, it's OK to be blunt.

YP... counter steering is the basis of HOW a bike turns... it's NOT a TRICK, It's NOT to be used JUST, "in a pinch"... TRICKY FELIX, ENDS UP ROADKILL.
FIND someone local, w/ balls enough to ACTUALLY TEACH YOU... NOT make cute little coombya snappy lines to make ya feel better. THIS AIN'T NO DISCO.
PEOPLE DIE FROM NOT LEARNING... and it's NOBODIES FAULT, BUT THERE OWN... it DOSEN'T have to be another... "just one of those things."
Find a mentor w/out... PIXY DUST IN HIS SACK.
When OR., is W.IDAHO BEACHFRONT... I HOPE this ALL gets straight'nd out....
Bwhahahahahaahahahahahahahahaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You guys got GREAT riders down there... TRANS, IS ONE that has gone WAY OUTTA HIS WAY TO MENTOR... KUDOS TRANS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
this "sport," w/OUT absolutes taught... is a DEATH TRAP.
I DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT CS FOR YEARS... it's a WONDER, I'M ALIVE.
GOOD FOR YOU... KEEP LEARNING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!
FREE and clean, Ripp'n

Udoggie · 09-26-2009, 07:15 PM

++ to Yellowpens for being trainable

++ to Clay for helping just about anyone willing to accept it

and ++ pv2 for trying to turn it into something to help everyone.

I always pickup something when I ride with others. It can be as simple as watching their lines in the corners, when/how hard they brake, where they're looking, whatever.

pv2 · 09-26-2009, 07:28 PM

Originally Posted by Rippn

YOUR LEGS ON FIRE... REALLY, it's OK to be blunt.

YP... counter steering is the basis of HOW a bike turns... it's NOT a TRICK, It's NOT to be used JUST, "in a pinch"... TRICKY FELIX, ENDS UP ROADKILL.
FIND someone local, w/ balls enough to ACTUALLY TEACH YOU... NOT make cute little coombya snappy lines to make ya feel better. THIS AIN'T NO DISCO.
PEOPLE DIE FROM NOT LEARNING... and it's NOBODIES FAULT, BUT THERE OWN... it DOSEN'T have to be another... "just one of those things."
Find a mentor w/out... PIXY DUST IN HIS SACK.
When OR., is W.IDAHO BEACHFRONT... I HOPE this ALL gets straight'nd out....
Bwhahahahahaahahahahahahahahaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You guys got GREAT riders down there... TRANS, IS ONE that has gone WAY OUTTA HIS WAY TO MENTOR... KUDOS TRANS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
this "sport," w/OUT absolutes taught... is a DEATH TRAP.
I DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT CS FOR YEARS... it's a WONDER, I'M ALIVE.
GOOD FOR YOU... KEEP LEARNING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!
FREE and clean, Ripp'n

Rippin:
as noted in the 1st post:
"In my head, one of the utilities of countersteering is that it is the fastest way to maneuver, to swerve, to pull out of a dangerous situation which suddenly comes upon a moto rider."

The bag of tricks is what to do when a sudden issue comes up.
An extraordinary circumstance is met by a countermeasure (a trick if you will).

So yes if you look at the one line and take it out of context it is understandable that you came to your..... conclusion.

Glad you are stiring the pot, it does allow us to clear up misunderstandings.

pv2

yellowpens · 09-26-2009, 07:34 PM

"In my head, one of the utilities of countersteering is that it is the fastest way to maneuver, to swerve, to pull out of a dangerous situation which suddenly comes upon a moto rider."
Quite true.. i never conciously pushed left and leaned left.
and dont worry. im not listining to people full of pixie dust. and im pretty certain the comment was only because i am female, and thus was unnecissary. thanks.

TwistedTimes · 09-26-2009, 07:34 PM

never ceases to amaze me when the counter steering subject comes up, how many people don't know they are doing it. Dr. Cox was telling me about this one guy (on an R1

) that wheel barrowed it around all the way through a pretty technical road once, so it is possible to turn without CS'ing but is very difficult and laborious. And if your Counter steering and just not knowing it, that is a dangerous situation cus WHEN things go outside your plan for a turn then you don't know how to react, and it is very hard to "see" if you are Counter Steering and just don't know, its not easy to tell unless you starting DISCUSSION about what a particular corner was all about.

Glad you got this before it ended up bad yellopenis

pv2 · 09-26-2009, 07:35 PM

Originally Posted by Udoggie

++ to Yellowpens for being trainable

++ to Clay for helping just about anyone willing to accept it

and ++ pv2 for trying to turn it into something to help everyone.

I always pickup something when I ride with others. It can be as simple as watching their lines in the corners, when/how hard they brake, where they're looking, whatever.

As Elvis would say, " Thank you veryyy much!"

Jet City Racer · 09-26-2009, 07:42 PM

You have to read this thread..........

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/s...d.php?t=163269

pv2 · 09-26-2009, 07:45 PM

Originally Posted by yellowpens

"In my head, one of the utilities of countersteering is that it is the fastest way to maneuver, to swerve, to pull out of a dangerous situation which suddenly comes upon a moto rider."
Quite true.. i never conciously pushed left and leaned left.
and dont worry. im not listining to people full of pixie dust. and im pretty certain the comment was only because i am female, and thus was unnecissary. thanks.

Female - Very ,

a Tinker Bell with Pixie Dust-NOt

Gold Dust - hey now that would be nice!

I always liked Felix the Cat!

Ripppppin was enjoying stiring (perhaps burning) the Pot

Soil · 09-26-2009, 07:54 PM

wow...
first - Yellowpens is the BOMB! IF we could all hold onto that "I'm learning" mentality like she has, and some others.... - I want to call someone out here, but won't out of respect for some privacy... this dude has ridden his WHOLE freaking life! He can easily out ride me comfortably - YET... he quickly searched me out and asked for input... and then KEEPS doing it! (kinda freaking me out! I'm having to push to keep up just to watch him!)

point is - those of you that think you 'know' - THAT is dangerous.

now - countersteering and using it is only part of it... YP got the 'start' of some exercises and stuff to feel it.

next - Thank you all for recognizing and givin' up some props for me doing this stuff!! I LOVE teaching and enjoy watching the 'ah-hah' moments... so come give me some!

finally - more important than countersteering is understanding survival reactions and learning about YOURSELF when riding. Another topic that simply can NOT be discussed enough.

Be safe - if you think you are riding at "75%", I would bet you are a LOT closer to 100% than you think... just slow down another 5 mph and chillll and focus on keeping those tires within 6 inches of where you WANT them.

luv for ya' all!
C

yellowpens · 09-26-2009, 07:59 PM

Well all. at least i know, conciously, how to do it now, eh??
(And my brothers a cop.. soo... if you make fun of me too much..)
Im just sayin'
thanks for the good vibes, though.

pv2 · 09-26-2009, 08:04 PM

Originally Posted by Jet City Racer

You have to read this thread..........

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/s...d.php?t=163269

I have went to a few track schools and methodology of cornering is different between all of them.

Jason Pridmore does not advocate countersteering.
By weighting the foot pegs e.g. the side you are turning toward, and leaning, you will steer your bike in that direction.

No need to push into the side you are tuning, perhaps incidental, but not active.

It works!

Now he also advocates more of a rotation around the gas filler, like your belly button was attached to a chain and your body rotated in a U shape around the tank.

Now you can't get your knee down using that method, you get your rear sliding out more.

Other people teach <--> butt transference which does move your knee.

Now as to peg weighting, some GP riders feet don't touch the opposite - outside peg due to their foot coming off of the peg in a hang out knee down position. Pretty difficult to weight that outside peg ya think???

So yeah there are a lot of different ways to do things and all are quite effective for their speficic case.

I just try to find what works for me and if it does not work see if I am doing it correctly or not.

Again good to have a Bag of Tricks!!!

Thanks for the thought on the thread.

pv2 Thread Sittin! in SFO

mfrankpdx · 09-26-2009, 08:09 PM

I don't counter steer.

Under 10 mph.

Transported · 09-26-2009, 08:09 PM

I don't know if others can be blamed for not recognizing a rider who is not aware of his or her countersteering knowledge.

As others have said here, one countersteers whether they are aware of it or not. You simply could not turn a bike without doing it. If you tried, you would go the opposite way of the way you intended, so your brain would realize immediately you were pushing on the handlebars the wrong way and you would correct and push on them the other way before a crash ensued. We learned this the first time we were able to balance and steer our bicycles.

But, keeping that knowledge at the forefront of your brain can make your steering sharper by making you aware of your most powerful steering mechanism rather than doing it instinctively and thinking it's all coming together in some magical and mysterious way. It can help you to hone your steering input.

I think the only way another rider would know if you had direct knowledge of countersteering is if they watched you steer through cones or perform a severe avoidance maneuver. It would be impossible to tell from normal riding.

pv2 · 09-26-2009, 08:15 PM

Originally Posted by mfrankpdx

I don't counter steer.

Under 10 mph.

Well if you'd get that front wheel down first

Rippn · 09-26-2009, 08:29 PM

Pen... YOU ARE ABSOLUTLY WRONG ABOUT IT BEING SEXIST, OR ABOUT YOU.

Something, about a "bag"...pullen out 'tricks" as needed... in my oppinion, as USEFULL as "pixy dust in there "sack"...
Bwhahahahaahahahahahahaahahahahaahahaaa!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No apolligy needed... EXCEPT FOR MY SPEL"N!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Pen, ask about steering w/ your knees, pegs too... do you find your self w/ a death grip on the bars? Do you shift your butt and body around for wieght transfer? ASK AROUND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!
Ask My friends, I'm an ASSHOLE... I GOT NO USE FOR DEAD FRIENDS.
This SPORT is about as DANGEROUS AS IT GETS...EVERYTIME WE RIDE.
Frame of mind, bike maintanence/condition...gear...TIRE PREASURE...self rightous ROAD RAGE, blind spots, not getting suckerd inover your head in a group...
and HERE WE "FALL" INTO THE ENDLESS THREADS of...
"why did I crash on COLD, UNDERINFLAED TIRES????"...
I got NO USE for dead friends.

Sexist?... I never said publicly, that FASTCAT... is my FAVORITE, MOST RESPECTED PNW contributor and member... SHE EARNED IT...SHE ROCKS!!!!!
FREE and clean, Ripp'n

Soil · 09-26-2009, 08:38 PM

Originally Posted by yellowpens

Well all. at least i know, conciously, how to do it now, eh??
(And my brothers a cop.. soo... if you make fun of me too much..)
Im just sayin'
thanks for the good vibes, though.

bro is a cop?

ummmm - we need to talk!

Soil · 09-26-2009, 08:43 PM

emPHAsis added below using color and size (because size ALWAYS matters! -bigger isn't always better, but it MATTERS!

)

Originally Posted by Rippn

Pen... YOU ARE ABSOLUTLY WRONG ABOUT IT BEING SEXIST, OR ABOUT YOU.

Something, about a "bag"...pullen out 'tricks" as needed... in my oppinion, as USEFULL as "pixy dust in there "sack"...
Bwhahahahaahahahahahahaahahahahaahahaaa!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No apolligy needed... EXCEPT FOR MY SPEL"N!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Pen, ask about steering w/ your knees, pegs too... do you find your self w/ a death grip on the bars? NOT anymore!!!

Do you shift your butt and body around for wieght transfer?not yet.... butt soon.

ASK AROUND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!
Ask My friends, I'm an ASSHOLE... I GOT NO USE FOR DEAD FRIENDS.
This SPORT is about as DANGEROUS AS IT GETS...EVERYTIME WE RIDE.
Frame of mind, bike maintanence/condition...gear...TIRE PREASURE...self rightous ROAD RAGE, blind spots, not getting suckerd inover your head in a group...
and HERE WE "FALL" INTO THE ENDLESS THREADS of...
"why did I crash on COLD, UNDERINFLAED TIRES????"...
I got NO USE for dead friends.

THAT'S what I'm TALKIN' (YES YELLING SOMETIMES) about

Sexist?... I never said publicly, that FASTCAT... is my FAVORITE, MOST RESPECTED PNW contributor and member... SHE EARNED IT...SHE ROCKS!!!!!
FREE and clean, Ripp'n

Dude - I wantED to meet you just because of your avatar. Now there are some other good reasons too!

pv2 · 09-26-2009, 08:44 PM

Originally Posted by Rippn

Pen... YOU ARE ABSOLUTLY WRONG ABOUT IT BEING SEXIST, OR ABOUT YOU.

Something, about a "bag"...pullen out 'tricks" as needed... in my oppinion, as USEFULL as "pixy dust in there "sack"...
Bwhahahahaahahahahahahaahahahahaahahaaa!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No apolligy needed... EXCEPT FOR MY SPEL"N!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Pen, ask about steering w/ your knees, pegs too... do you find your self w/ a death grip on the bars? Do you shift your butt and body around for wieght transfer? ASK AROUND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!
Ask My friends, I'm an ASSHOLE... I GOT NO USE FOR DEAD FRIENDS.
This SPORT is about as DANGEROUS AS IT GETS...EVERYTIME WE RIDE.
Frame of mind, bike maintanence/condition...gear...TIRE PREASURE...self rightous ROAD RAGE, blind spots, not getting suckerd inover your head in a group...
and HERE WE "FALL" INTO THE ENDLESS THREADS of...
"why did I crash on COLD, UNDERINFLAED TIRES????"...
I got NO USE for dead friends.

Sexist?... I never said publicly, that FASTCAT... is my FAVORITE, MOST RESPECTED PNW contributor and member... SHE EARNED IT...SHE ROCKS!!!!!
FREE and clean, Ripp'n

Well i guess he is pulling it out sack and all to show us all how big it is....... hope all the bravado does not leave one flat

We likely are all speaking the same although the verbage and spelling may be a bit different, I guess he is just bringing up a lot of other things all important, so no disagreement.

Ripppin if you have some superior techniques and riding friends perhpas you can put together a Saturday Clinic in a well lit daytime location

for those of us who are less knowledgable.

Always eager to learn a new Trick and take it to the road or Track!

Transported · 09-26-2009, 08:50 PM

Rippn, you're making me too scared to ride.

yellowpens · 09-26-2009, 09:18 PM

not blaming. only intended to say I NEVER KNEW and nobody whos walked up and given me all their knowledge has ever said anything either. not... why didnt somebody tell me? nobody thought to tell me because they thought i knew. simple enough. no blame.
this thread is not getting anywhere, and its original purpose has been completely overlooked. it is not about countersteering. it is not about me. it is not about pixie dust.

its about people needing to know what they need to know... check the title.

pv2 · 09-26-2009, 09:32 PM

Originally Posted by yellowpens

not blaming. only intended to say I NEVER KNEW and nobody whos walked up and given me all their knowledge has ever said anything either. not... why didnt somebody tell me? nobody thought to tell me because they thought i knew. simple enough. no blame.
this thread is not getting anywhere, and its original purpose has been completely overlooked. it is not about countersteering. it is not about me. it is not about pixie dust.

its about people needing to know what they need to know... check the title.

Hey my friend, next time I will ask you before I volunteer you as an example albeit a positive one in anything I write in the future.

Can we all countersteer this back into the origional purpose statement - I think some of us are... .... .... .......

Perhaps on how we can work together on spotting techniques or proactively discussing/ demonstrating methods be they in the parking lot at Ava's.

May be a useful path forward for us.....

S-oil whaddaya say???

lena · 09-26-2009, 09:48 PM

Yellowpens, some bikes countersteer easier than others. I don't think it's that big of a deal.

Anyway, I have another one. A few years ago when I first read "Twist of the Wrist" there was something there about trying to keep your eyes leveled with the horizon when you go through a turn. I tried it and it was an eye opening experience for me (pun!). I felt like I didn't know how to turn before and suddenly everything fell into place.

QBert · 09-26-2009, 09:57 PM

I know if I ever stop learning how to ride, or feel like I can't get any better, I will stop and move on to the next adventure.

darkavenger · 09-26-2009, 10:37 PM

Actually when i was riding in India we always steered. Counter-steering concept was not well known at all. Ofcourse we were riding mostly in the city traffic at the max 40 Kmph, probably hit 60Kmph at the outskirts on straightaways. The coolest bike you could get was a yamaha RX-100

Most of the turns were 90degress and we took it real slow. We always used rear breaks too and honked at every turn.

When i came here i heard and read about CS, it was bit strange but when i started riding it was not a big surprise. It came naturally at high speeds and circular corners.

pv2 · 09-26-2009, 11:13 PM

Originally Posted by darkavenger

Actually when i was riding in India we always steered. Counter-steering concept was not well known at all. Ofcourse we were riding mostly in the city traffic at the max 40 Kmph, probably hit 60Kmph at the outskirts on straightaways. The coolest bike you could get was a yamaha RX-100

Most of the turns were 90degress and we took it real slow. We always used rear breaks too and honked at every turn.

When i came here i heard and read about CS, it was bit strange but when i started riding it was not a big surprise. It came naturally at high speeds and circular corners.

whewsshhh Riding in India. Was over at DucatiMotoCorsa to enjoy the sights when I saw Arun and a group of people enjoying this very cool movie showing a number of Ducatsti riding their bikes through the Indian countryside. Reallly cool movie

I can' t imagine how that must have been!!

Happy Trails,

pv2

Transported · 09-27-2009, 07:20 AM

Originally Posted by darkavenger

Actually when i was riding in India we always steered. Counter-steering concept was not well known at all. Ofcourse we were riding mostly in the city traffic at the max 40 Kmph, probably hit 60Kmph at the outskirts on straightaways. The coolest bike you could get was a yamaha RX-100

Most of the turns were 90degress and we took it real slow. We always used rear breaks too and honked at every turn.

When i came here i heard and read about CS, it was bit strange but when i started riding it was not a big surprise. It came naturally at high speeds and circular corners.

I beg to differ. The way a bike falls into turns above maybe 8 mph is countersteering, unless you've got a trike or bike with a sidecar, then it is steering. Parking lot riding is likely to be steering, though.

And, Yellowpens, these aren't attacks on you. These are simply clarifications of the science of riding. The fact you think it's totally unproductive to talk about the misconceptions around countersteering is exactly the point of the original post. A knowledge of countersteering is essential to good-riding technique.

I think understanding how countersteering works is like understanding how a wing creates lift. Early glider designers may have stuck a flat foil on a fussilage and discovered that it glided when tossed. But, when it was discovered that a curved upper surface caused molecules to accelerate faster than the uncurved bottom side creating lift, then designers could manipulate that upper surface to create the exact lift characteristics they needed.

dragracer1951 · 09-27-2009, 07:42 AM

Originally Posted by lena

Yellowpens, some bikes countersteer easier than others. I don't think it's that big of a deal.

Anyway, I have another one. A few years ago when I first read "Twist of the Wrist" there was something there about trying to keep your eyes leveled with the horizon when you go through a turn. I tried it and it was an eye opening experience for me (pun!). I felt like I didn't know how to turn before and suddenly everything fell into place.

Very good point. I rode my tard up hwy 53 and for a couple of corenrs got my head out of level... Couldn't BELIEVE the lean angle. Very different perspective.
Another thing many don't do is look through the corner.
Many people are focusing 30 ft in front of themselves in tight twisties.
Wne I was last down in Portland I was fortunate enough to ride with Trans, Polvo and some other very good folks. We got the opportunity to talk about a number of things. One of them that I've taken was the concept of turning the bike with the hips. Just an increase on pressure makes quite a bit of difference.
Good thread!!!

yellowpens · 09-27-2009, 09:01 AM

Originally Posted by Transported

And, Yellowpens, these aren't attacks on you. These are simply clarifications of the science of riding. The fact you think it's totally unproductive to talk about the misconceptions around countersteering is exactly the point of the original post. A knowledge of countersteering is essential to good-riding technique.

I know.. sorry. I was just expecting to get massivly attacked.. so I was a little on edge.
When I think about the physics of the bike, it makes sense.
But I still believe it is indeed possible to steer without countersteering. I've got 15,000 miles of it I could show ya.

Soil · 09-27-2009, 09:44 AM

1. Recognizing other's misunderstandings during a group ride.

pay attention to others - required. IF you are riding so fast that you can't pay attention to the guy in front and behind you, you are riding WAY faster than you should be on the street!
signs include: posture and body position on the bike
where is their HEAD? is it in the middle of the tank while the ass hangs off - ask about it at the next stop
is there head STARTING a turn in the 'right' spot (off toward the inside of the turn) then before the turn is over, their head is back to the middle or even off the other side of the bike? - STOP THEM NOW! they are riding too fast - that is a 'hidden survival reaction'. They are 'running' from something they are afraid of - the turn! The head is moving without their knowledge, almost 100% of the time!
arms - check out the bike, and their size ratio... but - if the arms are or are not relaxed, you should be able to see it pretty clearly (usually) - again, talk to them at the next stop. Best thing to talk about first in that situation is how hard they are squeezing the grips (LOOOOOOOSE is the right answer, right?
braking mid corner - IF the guy in front of you brakes mid corner (and there is nothing to worry about there) - STOP THEM NOW! they are riding over their head.
throttle roll off is harder to notice than a brake light, but you can see it by seeing them lean over, then the bike will wobble as they roll off - the bike wants to stand up when you roll off, but if the rider lets it, it will go wide - so he has to turn it more, wobble. pull him over NOW - riding over his head.
what happens at the exit of a turn - matters! if they are 'parking it' in the corners and blasting on the straights - (and NO other signs of survival reactions) talk to them at the next stop - make SURE they don't use the words 'KEEP UP'... Those are 'death words'!!!
mid corner corrections - more obvious than a throttle roll off wobble... but not as 'urgent'. No sign of any 'survival reactions' but it is obvious they don't know the road and are riding 'toward' their limits if they enter a turn and then lean more or less to correct because they were obviously being pulled in by the rider in front of them and relying on his line...
BIG ONES - yellow, close to the white, standing it up in a corner, shaking their head during or after a corner, releasing the grip and shaking their hands to get blood flow back... LOTS of stuff that is screaming: "PULL THEM OVER NOW! BEFORE THEY KILL THEMSELVES".

Depending on what situation above occurs, the 'talk' can be anything from a friendly 'question' to flat out YELLING at somebody to STFD! (slow the F$%^ Down!). Regardless if you are a 6'6" 250 pound STRONG man or a 4'2" tiny woman - speak to this person that is riding over their head with authority and conviction and confidence... It just doesn't matter if you are a little 'worried' about how you will come off if 3 turns later that person is bleeding in a ditch, does it?

2. counter steering works at speeds WAY below 10, or 8 mph - next time you have the chance, do a u-turn and FOCUS on counter steering while feathering your clutch to control momentum - example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKNaBH93iYg

There are a LOT of 'EXPERT' things happening in that video and I only want to focus on ONE - I promise he is counter steering to initiate EACH turn.

3. counter steering misconceptions of the experienced: first need to be clear about something - counter steering is THE act of pushing on the left grip and pointing the wheel to the right to turn left. When leaning only, the wheel misalignment does happen, but not because of the grip push, that isn't counter steering that is a result of the physics and bike dynamics.... so for this discussion I am considering counter steering only as the push on the grips.

place yourself here: rolling down the road toward a left turn you know... easy 35 mph, consistent sweeper that goes about 180 degrees. Speed set properly, throttle rule #1 will be applied properly, everything is perfect except:

as you enter the turn you ONLY lean your body, press the pegs, whatever it takes to get the bike leaned over - EXCEPT you do NOTHING to the grips. Now, as the bike leans over, you start to roll the throttle on as is normal. Annnnnnnd then - because you don't understand counter steering, your only experience is with CARS - you turn the handle bars into the turn. (this is what those that don't understand counter steering do - EVERY TURN!)

What does the bike want to do as they push on the right grip and pull on the left? It wants to turn - RIGHT... in the middle of that LEFT hand turn! They literally have to FIGHT the bike ALL the way around EVERY turn. Can you imagine if ALL of your experience on a bike were like THAT? how long would you have ridden trying to 'figure it out' on your own? Eleah - you have more guts and stick to-it-ness than I do! I woulda quit a LONG time ago!

3. Butt movement - on the street, minimize it! I can't tell you how many rear slides I have save in the last few months because I WAS NOT hanging off the bike. (yes, Sax, I DO hang off sometimes, NOT because I need to but because I am practicing - bike is almost straight up and down, clear, visible turn; and I will hang off. These legs are getting old, it's like yoga on a bike

)

No question about the fact that next year, there will be more riders out there - more new riders... and MORE deaths. The most effective thing I have found to minimize them is the direct and active participation of folks in helping those new riders.

pdxnathan · 09-27-2009, 09:48 AM

Here's an interesting quote from Lee Parks' book, "Total Control":

As long as I have been riding, a debate has raged between proponents of countersteering and proponents of rider lean, or body steering. It has been experience that you can indeed make fine course corrections using only rider weight shifts while in the middle of a turn. However, rider weight shifts are incapable of resulting in rapid directional changes. This was scientifically proven with Keith Code's "No B.S. Bike Trainer." The trainer utilized a second set of handlebars rigidly affixed to the frame along with a throttle. Riders found it was impossible to make quick or accurate steering inputs by shifting only their body weight. Body steering may make a fine supplemental steering technique, but it can never be the primary force for directional changes.

Everybody countersteers, whether they know it or not, but I definitely believe that being aware of what I am doing has not only helped me turn smoother and quicker and with more confidence, but has also helped me better suppress my Surivival Reactions in some situations. Coming around a right hand turn and finding a truck oncoming in half my lane, I've been able to push decisively with my right hand to get further inside and miss the truck. Of course that was one time... had I been going faster, or the truck going faster, or even just having a worse day mentally on the bike, who knows. But I firmly believe that having the correct understanding of riding technique in my conscious brain helps me - over TIME and PRACTICE - to wire that understanding into my body/subconscious/reflexes.

Anyway at the end of the day it's a big KUDOS to YP for sharing her learning experience so that others might be able to learn from it too. We ALL learned about CS at some point... nobody was born knowing

And of course a continue "thank you Clay!" for taking your time to teach so many people what you know... it's a mark of distinct character and generosity.

Good thread!

nathan

pdxnathan · 09-27-2009, 09:48 AM

p.s.: lol Clay posted while I was typing out of Parks' book... man how often do we cross-post??!!

pv2 · 09-27-2009, 09:58 AM

Originally Posted by Transported

I beg to differ. The way a bike falls into turns above maybe 8 mph is countersteering, unless you've got a trike or bike with a sidecar, then it is steering. Parking lot riding is likely to be steering, though.

And, Yellowpens, these aren't attacks on you. These are simply clarifications of the science of riding. The fact you think it's totally unproductive to talk about the misconceptions around countersteering is exactly the point of the original post. A knowledge of countersteering is essential to good-riding technique.

I think understanding how countersteering works is like understanding how a wing creates lift. Early glider designers may have stuck a flat foil on a fussilage and discovered that it glided when tossed. But, when it was discovered that a curved upper surface caused molecules to accelerate faster than the uncurved bottom side creating lift, then designers could manipulate that upper surface to create the exact lift characteristics they needed.

Agreed, we discuss theory and application.
To undestand why something works adds credence to the application.
Else people go through motions which later get dumped - along with the rider.

Low pressure on the top of the wing (Ft) creates a vacume over the wing's surface which is greater than the low pressure force over the bottom of the wing Fb. Therefore: Fb>Ft the wing lifts the plane.
a which is described through of Bernoulli's principle in Fluid Dynamics.

So in keeping with YellowPen's theme assertation, Planes Suck!

At least the wings do....

pv2


09-26-2009, 06:19 PM	#2
yellowpens Pit Crew Joined: Mar 2009 From: Tigard, OR I Ride: '96 Kawi Ninja ZX6-R	obviously i was doing alright without CS. but damn, it is helpful! i couldnt believe it! i talked to one other who said he didnt really know about it until he had about 40,000 miles behind him. some of us just learn late. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


09-26-2009, 06:22 PM	#3
yellowpens Pit Crew Joined: Mar 2009 From: Tigard, OR I Ride: '96 Kawi Ninja ZX6-R	btw: i know how some of you can be. dont go talking shit. i'm not embaressed that i didnt know what it was.. most of my miles are commuter.. and the 30 different PNW guys who have taken it upon themselves in the past to critque my slowness and ask me if I'm "OK" when riding, didn't notice that I was missing this critical piece of information, either. out of my 15,000 miles.. about 11,000 of them are highway type roads...soo... that gives me 4000 miles, many in groups, where i didnt notice other people doing it and nobody noticed me not doing it. just one of those things. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


09-26-2009, 06:32 PM	#6
yellowpens Pit Crew Joined: Mar 2009 From: Tigard, OR I Ride: '96 Kawi Ninja ZX6-R	Part of me is ...how the hell did i not know that...? but.. if nobody else ever told me and i never thought "Hey, let me look up ways to steer my bike" then.. how would i know, right? Yes.. I took and passed TO.. but thats a whole other story in and of itself. oh- and clay and i did practice.. well.. he sent me down the hill a couple hundred times to practice by myself- how to use it to avoid stuff. i feel "in the know" __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


09-26-2009, 06:32 PM	#7
dwschultzy Superbiker Joined: Nov 2007 From: auburn Blog Entries: 2 I Ride: CBR	cs'ing is part of riding anything on two wheels....whether you know you're doing it or not...you are __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


09-26-2009, 07:01 PM	#9
Rippn MotoGP Champion Joined: Apr 2007 From: soap lake wa. I Ride: 00kaw12r, 97 tls1000, 96gsxr1260 turbo freakshow, kz1300gt, 88gsxr1100, 86gsxr750, 82gsx1100ez, 79kz1300, 75 ducati750gts, 72 gt550 cafe	YOUR LEGS ON FIRE... REALLY, it's OK to be blunt. YP... counter steering is the basis of HOW a bike turns... it's NOT a TRICK, It's NOT to be used JUST, "in a pinch"... TRICKY FELIX, ENDS UP ROADKILL. FIND someone local, w/ balls enough to ACTUALLY TEACH YOU... NOT make cute little coombya snappy lines to make ya feel better. THIS AIN'T NO DISCO. PEOPLE DIE FROM NOT LEARNING... and it's NOBODIES FAULT, BUT THERE OWN... it DOSEN'T have to be another... "just one of those things." Find a mentor w/out... PIXY DUST IN HIS SACK. When OR., is W.IDAHO BEACHFRONT... I HOPE this ALL gets straight'nd out.... Bwhahahahahaahahahahahahahahaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You guys got GREAT riders down there... TRANS, IS ONE that has gone WAY OUTTA HIS WAY TO MENTOR... KUDOS TRANS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! this "sport," w/OUT absolutes taught... is a DEATH TRAP. I DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT CS FOR YEARS... it's a WONDER, I'M ALIVE. GOOD FOR YOU... KEEP LEARNING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!! FREE and clean, Ripp'n __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter

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09-26-2009, 06:15 PM	#1
pv2 Streetfighter Joined: Jun 2008 From: Portland, Oregon I Ride: 03 RC51 SP-2	I'ts not what you know, it's not what you don't know, it's what you know.... I'ts not what you know, it's not what you don't know, it's what you know, That just ain't so! A very cool Engineering Prof told me that during our Engineering Economics Class back in my Undergrad back at University of Texas. I'd think a reason for moto schooling and the reason for Clay's class and being here on forum is to share ideas. To get unknowns known and to get the Knowns which are actually falsehoods / innacuracies fleshed out and discussed. We should not attack anyone, but get things discussed. When Yellowpens mentioned that she did not know how to countersteer, I was a bit shocked. I don't know if that meant that she countersteered without knowing what it was, or if it was that she just never mechanically countersteered. Glad she shared that and Kudos for the mention. So I have to ask in the forum, are there others amongst us who are basking in knowledge which may be incomplete, or perhaps dead wrong? Certainly there is room for improvement in technique and discussion of what optimally works for people in different situations; however, I am a bit shocked when I hear of riders who go out and really don't have the mechanics of what they are doing. Or very good techniques, however, a gaping hole of death, in their knowledge base till the right moment comes along and... Bang they hit it... and all the cards are stacked, circumstances all aligned such that serious injury or death results. In my head, one of the utilities of countersteering is that it is the fastest way to maneuver, to swerve, to pull out of a dangerous situation which suddenly comes upon a moto rider. My Issue: I remember an incident in a group ride, weighting my foot pegs and i did not quite have the corner and swung wide, I looked extra hard into the corner and countersteered my way out of what was otherwise a very harsh head-on introduction to a car coming the other way. My fault and my goof. No one knew about it, no one could see me dispite having people front and rear, but I smoothly pulled it out of my bag of tricks to avoid an issue. if i did not have that ability/ knowledge, I could have camoflagued the fact using some other technique, no one would have known that I did not know, and if I had hit, no one would have known cause I would likely not be around to share the cause of my fk kup. So, Kudos to you Yellowpens and Clay for getting an unknown found out and discussed. Anyone else??? You may not even know it, and this may be a good reason to hang with the ClayMan and get going. Discuss your technique, what you are doing when you ride, what you are not doing when you ride. Go out and ride! Get your unknowns and false beliefs known and ride the shining path to happiness!!! Perhaps some of our RIPS could have benefitted atleast by some safety orientation from us as a group, but more likely by a hands on ride and eval. pv2 ishly dashing V2 dude __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter Last edited by pv2; 09-26-2009 at 06:18 PM..


09-26-2009, 07:15 PM	#10
Udoggie Training Wheels Joined: Aug 2009 From: Aloha, Oregon I Ride: Suzuki SFV650	++ to Yellowpens for being trainable ++ to Clay for helping just about anyone willing to accept it and ++ pv2 for trying to turn it into something to help everyone. I always pickup something when I ride with others. It can be as simple as watching their lines in the corners, when/how hard they brake, where they're looking, whatever. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


09-26-2009, 07:34 PM	#12
yellowpens Pit Crew Joined: Mar 2009 From: Tigard, OR I Ride: '96 Kawi Ninja ZX6-R	"In my head, one of the utilities of countersteering is that it is the fastest way to maneuver, to swerve, to pull out of a dangerous situation which suddenly comes upon a moto rider." Quite true.. i never conciously pushed left and leaned left. and dont worry. im not listining to people full of pixie dust. and im pretty certain the comment was only because i am female, and thus was unnecissary. thanks. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


09-26-2009, 07:34 PM	#13
TwistedTimes HondaKilla Joined: Jan 2008 From: Hillsburrito, OR I Ride: Like a duc wrangler	never ceases to amaze me when the counter steering subject comes up, how many people don't know they are doing it. Dr. Cox was telling me about this one guy (on an R1 ) that wheel barrowed it around all the way through a pretty technical road once, so it is possible to turn without CS'ing but is very difficult and laborious. And if your Counter steering and just not knowing it, that is a dangerous situation cus WHEN things go outside your plan for a turn then you don't know how to react, and it is very hard to "see" if you are Counter Steering and just don't know, its not easy to tell unless you starting DISCUSSION about what a particular corner was all about. Glad you got this before it ended up bad yellopenis __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


09-26-2009, 07:42 PM	#15
Jet City Racer Streetfighter Joined: Jan 2009 From: Federal Way I Ride: 2 wheeled ones	You have to read this thread.......... http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/s...d.php?t=163269 __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


09-26-2009, 07:54 PM	#17
Soil Zone Head Joined: Mar 2008 From: Beaverton, OR - CLAY I Ride: K6 GSXR 1K	nice wow... first - Yellowpens is the BOMB! IF we could all hold onto that "I'm learning" mentality like she has, and some others.... - I want to call someone out here, but won't out of respect for some privacy... this dude has ridden his WHOLE freaking life! He can easily out ride me comfortably - YET... he quickly searched me out and asked for input... and then KEEPS doing it! (kinda freaking me out! I'm having to push to keep up just to watch him!) point is - those of you that think you 'know' - THAT is dangerous. now - countersteering and using it is only part of it... YP got the 'start' of some exercises and stuff to feel it. next - Thank you all for recognizing and givin' up some props for me doing this stuff!! I LOVE teaching and enjoy watching the 'ah-hah' moments... so come give me some! finally - more important than countersteering is understanding survival reactions and learning about YOURSELF when riding. Another topic that simply can NOT be discussed enough. Be safe - if you think you are riding at "75%", I would bet you are a LOT closer to 100% than you think... just slow down another 5 mph and chillll and focus on keeping those tires within 6 inches of where you WANT them. luv for ya' all! C __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


09-26-2009, 07:59 PM	#18
yellowpens Pit Crew Joined: Mar 2009 From: Tigard, OR I Ride: '96 Kawi Ninja ZX6-R	Well all. at least i know, conciously, how to do it now, eh?? (And my brothers a cop.. soo... if you make fun of me too much..) Im just sayin' thanks for the good vibes, though. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


09-26-2009, 08:09 PM	#20
mfrankpdx Moderator Joined: Jul 2007 From: Portland I Ride: '07 R1, '08 WR250X	I don't counter steer. Under 10 mph. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


09-26-2009, 08:09 PM	#21
Transported MotoGP Champion Joined: Dec 2006 From: Portland, Oregon Blog Entries: 1 I Ride: '99 R1, '80 Suz GS450S	I don't know if others can be blamed for not recognizing a rider who is not aware of his or her countersteering knowledge. As others have said here, one countersteers whether they are aware of it or not. You simply could not turn a bike without doing it. If you tried, you would go the opposite way of the way you intended, so your brain would realize immediately you were pushing on the handlebars the wrong way and you would correct and push on them the other way before a crash ensued. We learned this the first time we were able to balance and steer our bicycles. But, keeping that knowledge at the forefront of your brain can make your steering sharper by making you aware of your most powerful steering mechanism rather than doing it instinctively and thinking it's all coming together in some magical and mysterious way. It can help you to hone your steering input. I think the only way another rider would know if you had direct knowledge of countersteering is if they watched you steer through cones or perform a severe avoidance maneuver. It would be impossible to tell from normal riding. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


09-26-2009, 08:29 PM	#23
Rippn MotoGP Champion Joined: Apr 2007 From: soap lake wa. I Ride: 00kaw12r, 97 tls1000, 96gsxr1260 turbo freakshow, kz1300gt, 88gsxr1100, 86gsxr750, 82gsx1100ez, 79kz1300, 75 ducati750gts, 72 gt550 cafe	Pen... YOU ARE ABSOLUTLY WRONG ABOUT IT BEING SEXIST, OR ABOUT YOU. Something, about a "bag"...pullen out 'tricks" as needed... in my oppinion, as USEFULL as "pixy dust in there "sack"... Bwhahahahaahahahahahahaahahahahaahahaaa!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! No apolligy needed... EXCEPT FOR MY SPEL"N!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Pen, ask about steering w/ your knees, pegs too... do you find your self w/ a death grip on the bars? Do you shift your butt and body around for wieght transfer? ASK AROUND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!! Ask My friends, I'm an ASSHOLE... I GOT NO USE FOR DEAD FRIENDS. This SPORT is about as DANGEROUS AS IT GETS...EVERYTIME WE RIDE. Frame of mind, bike maintanence/condition...gear...TIRE PREASURE...self rightous ROAD RAGE, blind spots, not getting suckerd inover your head in a group... and HERE WE "FALL" INTO THE ENDLESS THREADS of... "why did I crash on COLD, UNDERINFLAED TIRES????"... I got NO USE for dead friends. Sexist?... I never said publicly, that FASTCAT... is my FAVORITE, MOST RESPECTED PNW contributor and member... SHE EARNED IT...SHE ROCKS!!!!! FREE and clean, Ripp'n __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


09-26-2009, 08:50 PM	#27
Transported MotoGP Champion Joined: Dec 2006 From: Portland, Oregon Blog Entries: 1 I Ride: '99 R1, '80 Suz GS450S	Rippn, you're making me too scared to ride. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


09-26-2009, 09:18 PM	#28
yellowpens Pit Crew Joined: Mar 2009 From: Tigard, OR I Ride: '96 Kawi Ninja ZX6-R	not blaming. only intended to say I NEVER KNEW and nobody whos walked up and given me all their knowledge has ever said anything either. not... why didnt somebody tell me? nobody thought to tell me because they thought i knew. simple enough. no blame. this thread is not getting anywhere, and its original purpose has been completely overlooked. it is not about countersteering. it is not about me. it is not about pixie dust. its about people needing to know what they need to know... check the title. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


09-26-2009, 09:48 PM	#30
lena Moderator Joined: Aug 2007 From: Portland, OR I Ride: Monster 750	Yellowpens, some bikes countersteer easier than others. I don't think it's that big of a deal. Anyway, I have another one. A few years ago when I first read "Twist of the Wrist" there was something there about trying to keep your eyes leveled with the horizon when you go through a turn. I tried it and it was an eye opening experience for me (pun!). I felt like I didn't know how to turn before and suddenly everything fell into place. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


09-26-2009, 09:57 PM	#31
QBert Training Wheels Joined: Sep 2009 From: Beaverton, Or I Ride: a fun one.	I know if I ever stop learning how to ride, or feel like I can't get any better, I will stop and move on to the next adventure. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


09-26-2009, 10:37 PM	#32
darkavenger Newbie Joined: Apr 2009 From: Beaverton, or I Ride: BMW F650 GS	Actually when i was riding in India we always steered. Counter-steering concept was not well known at all. Ofcourse we were riding mostly in the city traffic at the max 40 Kmph, probably hit 60Kmph at the outskirts on straightaways. The coolest bike you could get was a yamaha RX-100 Most of the turns were 90degress and we took it real slow. We always used rear breaks too and honked at every turn. When i came here i heard and read about CS, it was bit strange but when i started riding it was not a big surprise. It came naturally at high speeds and circular corners. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


09-27-2009, 09:48 AM	#39
pdxnathan Pit Crew Joined: Mar 2009 From: hillsboro I Ride: white ducati m1100s	p.s.: lol Clay posted while I was typing out of Parks' book... man how often do we cross-post??!! __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter

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