Stoner or Rossi? - Page 3

Ciao998 · 07-23-2008, 02:26 PM

The best rider takes full advantage of his package, whatever that may be.

I hav'nt seen the telemetry yet. Don't care, I beleive you. Dont blame the FIM.

Blame Honda, Kawasaki, Yamaha, and Suzuki.................Seriously. They're the ones who pushed for it. The FIM has to bend over for their race teams when it's that unanimous.

Ciao998 · 07-23-2008, 02:29 PM

Originally Posted by GixxerPete

Yes, Michelin was (is?) notorious for playing favorites with tires, and Rossi benefitted from that... until Bridgestone came along and blew Michelin out of the water. Then even the "best" Michelin tires weren't on par with the tires every Bridgestone rider got.

Spec tire rule FTW

Agreed, Stones are def the better tire at the moment.

I'm not for a spec tire, but I don't really care either.

I think the "premier" classes of racing should be able to use whatver they choose, even if that means a v10 motor and 300 width tires, lol

GixxerPete · 07-23-2008, 02:30 PM

Originally Posted by Ciao998

He was a rookie Pete. That's like saying Jorge Lorenzo sucks on an 800, lol.

If Jorge comes back next year with a strong mind, he'll be even better than the excellence he had shown earlier this year

Lorenzo doesn't suck, but he's a good example of a rookie that did better than he would have without being propped up by electronics and easier to ride 800s. Which goes along exactly with what Roberts, Mamola etc were saying that TC/electronics makes everyone faster and levels the talent field.

Do you honestly think the level of talent in GP racing magically jumped way up for no apparent reason, and the fact that this jump was at the same time as the switch to the electronic-laden 800s debuted is just a coincidence?

Sorry, it but it takes more talent/skill to ride a bucking bronco like a 500 smoker or 990 fast than 800, and those in the know, that have actually ridden them, all agree.

MadManx · 07-23-2008, 02:55 PM

who the hell is Rossi?

watskooo · 07-23-2008, 03:01 PM

I'm going to disagree that Michelin played favorites and gave Rossi the "best tires". I've read various articles about how Rossi liked different, harder tires than everyone else. Colin Edwards tried Rossi's tires and couldn't use them at all, and he thinks it's better for Michelin to not have to develop two different types of now. Very rarely during races does anyone else run harder tire selections than Rossi (from the same tire manufacturer).

There's a lot that has changed in the last couple years regarding tires. Michelin's advantage used to be the fact that they could manufacture tires overnight, and fly them to the race after they had data from the practice sessions. Their tires would then work incredibly well, but for a very narrow range of conditions. When tire selection was limited, the Bridgestones that worked over a wider range of conditions had an advantage.

FatMatt · 07-23-2008, 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by MadManx

who the hell is Rossi?

I think he's some Italian that doesn't like to pay taxes?

GixxerPete · 07-23-2008, 03:23 PM

Originally Posted by Ciao998

The best rider takes full advantage of his package, whatever that may be.

I hav'nt seen the telemetry yet. Don't care, I beleive you. Dont blame the FIM.

Blame Honda, Kawasaki, Yamaha, and Suzuki.................Seriously. They're the ones who pushed for it. The FIM has to bend over for their race teams when it's that unanimous.

No they didn't... the FIM was saying the 990s were "too fast" for the tracks and therefore unsafe. Rather than look at improving the tracks, they decided 800cc bikes would be a better solution.

Do you really think all the factories after putting untold millions of dollars into R&D of the 990s that were still just a few years old would want to throw all that out the window and basically start all over again with 800s? They didn't want it, the racers didn't want it... but it happened.

the chemist · 07-23-2008, 03:49 PM

Originally Posted by GixxerPete

Oh so the crappy Michelins were a good excuse for Stoner on the 990 but not last year for Rossi?

Originally Posted by GixxerPete

Yes, Michelin was (is?) notorious for playing favorites with tires, and Rossi benefitted from that

Wow...way to contradict yourself. Stoner was on a Satellite team, Rossi is a tier one factory team rider. Your stupidity is starting to amaze me.

Originally Posted by GixxerPete

You can disagree all you want, but it's fact there's more electronics, fly-by-wire etc in the 800s than the 990s

Weird, because in "the doctor, the tornado, and the kentucky kid, nicky talks about fly-by-wire, and that was filmed before the 800's. I dont think all these electronics just FELL out of the sky when the 800s came out. A progression? Yes. But, they worked up to it over the years.

Originally Posted by Ciao998

The best rider takes full advantage of his package, whatever that may be.

A good rider can adapt to situations. Whether that be tracks, bikes, or anything. Thats like saying Spies only finished 8th because he all of a sudden was on a GP bike, so he isn't that good of a rider...

Originally Posted by GixxerPete

Do you honestly think the level of talent in GP racing magically jumped way up for no apparent reason

Um, its obviously years in the making that went all the way through to the 125cc bikes. I suppose JD Beach is only leading the Rookies Cup because of the electronics

Originally Posted by watskooo

I'm going to disagree that Michelin played favorites and gave Rossi the "best tires

There's a lot that has changed in the last couple years regarding tires. Michelin's advantage used to be the fact that they could manufacture tires overnight, and fly them to the race after they had data from the practice sessions. Their tires would then work incredibly well, but for a very narrow range of conditions. When tire selection was limited, the Bridgestones that worked over a wider range of conditions had an advantage.

It is widely, and commonly known that they DID give the better riders better tires. It is also known that your above explanation is why Bridgestones are 'better' now.

Originally Posted by GixxerPete

Rather than look at improving the tracks, they decided 800cc bikes would be a better solution.

Why the tard face? You really expect the FIM to upgrade and improve ALL 18 tracks? Do you realize how much that would cost? Or...is this you just scratching for a reason to argue for Rossi?

Ciao998 · 07-23-2008, 03:51 PM

Originally Posted by GixxerPete

Sorry, it but it takes more talent/skill to ride a bucking bronco like a 500 smoker or 990 fast than 800, and those in the know, that have actually ridden them, all agree.

More skill? or different skill. I say different.

Of course, look at any old racer and they will try to show how "hard" their era was, thus giving their successes more credibility. lol

Everyone has the same obstacles. I agree Stoner lacks a few of Rossi's skills. But like I've said again and again. He's still young!

This year, more than ever, it seems that set--up is playing an enormous role in who is winning. A rider, including Rossi, as good as he is, can't make up for it if they have a bad practice, testing, leading up to a race. Last year it was a bit muddled because Stoner/Ducati were sooooooooo fast.

To win on these bikes teams are having to optimize everything. And the rider still has to do his part. The team and bike ARE playing a bigger role. I don't have an issue with this. Whoever wins...........

About a new influx of talent.........Obviously there are some excellent new talents Pete. To deny it would be unfair. Lorenzo was pretty much spanking Rossi early in the year. The guy has great skill. Dovizioso ad De Angelis are doing well on sattelite teams. Pedrosa has transitioned to the 800 very well, and he spent quite a bit of time on the 990 machines. Using the 800 as an excuse is kinda lame IMHO.

mnewell · 07-23-2008, 06:29 PM

Originally Posted by ducatiduane

Just like the bus stop makes us all 5 seconds faster

If Casey isn't good, why is he the ONLY guy that can ride that bike? Melandri can't. Sete can't. Elias can't. Hoffman couldn't. Barros? no. Capirossi almost got a handle on it, almost. Casey is the only one that rides the piss out of that bike. last year, yea his bike was faster, but 2mph on the end of the front straight hardly qualifies for the "way fastest bike" this year... Have you seen Casey get the back end sliding? They've turned down the TC for him and are moving away from the electronics.

Actually the reason why Stoner can ride the Ducati and Melandri, Sete, Elias, Hoffman, Barros, and Capirossi can't has more to do with their riding styles and what they are used to.

Stoner has a dirt tracking background that translates well to the way the Ducati makes its power. All the other riders started out road racing and really didn't do any dirt tracking. It is for this reason that Ducati wants to get Hayden and, possibly, Spies. Although Spies never really raced dirt track, the style of AMA Superbikes is alot more similar than someone who rode 125/250s.

mnewell · 07-23-2008, 06:34 PM

Originally Posted by ducatiduane

see my post about his crappy tires on mich's.

Michelins were THE tires back then. Dunlop and Bridgestone were crap.

Rossi didn't get special Michelins. He got different Michelins that suited his riding style but no one elses.

If your history of MotoGP went farther than a year, you might actually know what you are talking about...

mnewell · 07-23-2008, 06:42 PM

More fuel for the fire. The following article is from http://www.canberratimes.com.au/news...m/1225265.aspx

Emphasis added by me.

Rossi returns fire after Stoner criticism
BY PHILIP HENDERSON
MOTOR SPORT

24/07/2008 12:00:00 AM
Valentino Rossi has ensured a fiery finale to the MotoGP championship after escalating a bitter feud with rival Casey Stoner.
The seven-time world champion hit back yesterday at the Australian's accusation he used dirty tricks to win Sunday's US Grand Prix, while adding further spite to their off-track battle by questioning Stoner's ability to handle the pressure of tight races.

Rossi's Yamaha crew chief Jerry Burgess the man behind the world titles of Wayne Gardner and Mick Doohan also weighed into the war of words by claiming the manoeuvres that so offended Stoner at Laguna Seca were commonplace during the 1980s and '90s.

''On the podium he told me that he'd lost respect for me because he's been racing for many years and he doesn't remember ever having a race like that,'' Rossi said.

''Well, if he's been racing for many years, I've been racing for a lifetime and I don't know who he's been racing against but I remember all my races being like that and my rivals always fought that way.

''He's used to the mentality of racing at the front with a four-second advantage over the field but racing shoulder-to-shoulder brings other factors into play. Hence this time I won and I'm happy.''

Stoner publicly voiced his displeasure at Rossi's ride immediately following Sunday's race after the Italian successfully executed a daring pass on the fourth lap at the Cavatappi bend.

Rossi, who now leads reigning champion Stoner by 25 points at the top of the standings with seven races remaining, rubbed further salt into the Australian's wounds by branding that move the best of his illustrious career and the race win in his top five all time.

''For sure this was one of my best five victories because Stoner is a tough cookie,'' Rossi said. ''And the pass at Cavatappi was the best of my career; he barely braked on the bend and me even less so, so little in fact that my wheels touched the gravel.''

Yamaha crew chief Burgess was quick to come to the defence of his star rider after Stoner's comments about the unfairness of Rossi's manoeuvres.

''I think that if Casey had raced in the '80s and '90s with Kevin Schwantz, Wayne Rainey and Mick Doohan, he'd have seen that every weekend,'' the Australian said.

''It was probably something that he wasn't particularly expecting, [he] probably expected to win the race easily like he'd dominated in the practices.''

Both riders will have plenty of time to cool off before the next race, with the championship set to resume on August17 in the Czech Republic after a three-week break. AAP

the chemist · 07-23-2008, 10:16 PM

Originally Posted by mnewell

Michelins were THE tires back then. Dunlop and Bridgestone were crap.

Rossi didn't get special Michelins. He got different Michelins that suited his riding style but no one elses.

If your history of MotoGP went farther than a year, you might actually know what you are talking about...

Back then? It was two years ago

and yea, they were THE tire, before tire rules prevented them from getting new tires over night. It is WELL known that michelin gives its best riders the tires they want. everyone else gets the left overs. im not debating ROSSI's choice of tires, im saying that stoner got crap when he rode the Honda...

mnewell · 07-24-2008, 09:45 AM

Originally Posted by ducatiduane

Back then? It was two years ago

and yea, they were THE tire, before tire rules prevented them from getting new tires over night. It is WELL known that michelin gives its best riders the tires they want. everyone else gets the left overs. im not debating ROSSI's choice of tires, im saying that stoner got crap when he rode the Honda...

Yes, back then. In terms of technology, two years ago is a lifetime ago.

Can you please show me evidence that Michelin gave it's best riders the tires they want and everyone else got crap left overs? The rules change basically meant that Michelin couldn't bring a truck with 200 different tire choices which was what Michelin used to do. All the riders had access to all the tires. Now all teams running Michelin or Bridgestone must only bring 31 total tires (14 front, 17 rear). This makes tire selection that much more critical, putting the onus to get it right more on the manufacturer than the teams. This was evidenced at laguna where Michelin totally fucked up.

eurospeed · 07-24-2008, 09:54 AM

I think stoner reacting like that its all what rossi needed. like rossi vs biaggi or rossi vs sete.

GixxerPete · 07-24-2008, 09:58 AM

Originally Posted by Ciao998

More skill? or different skill. I say different.

Riding a bike with all kinds of electronics and traction control etc that takes decisions out of the rider's hands and a computer does it for them definitely does NOT take more skill. Riding a bike WITHOUT all that BS absolutely positively takes more skill. I honestly don't see how anyone could think any differently? It's really that obvious. How could it possibly take more, or even the same skill to let the bike ride itself for you?

Stoner does better on the TC-era bikes cuz he trusts the electronics more, and will just pin it and let the computer ride for him, where the more experienced riders used to the 500s and 990s and have a hard time just pinning it when for the majority of their careers, such a move would instantly land them on their heads. They trust their own instincts and skill more than a computer. Skills Stoner never really had to develop, coming off 125s and 250s, with only one (crash filled) season on a 990 before the switch to the 800s.

GixxerPete · 07-24-2008, 10:11 AM

Originally Posted by ducatiduane

Wow...way to contradict yourself. Stoner was on a Satellite team, Rossi is a tier one factory team rider. Your stupidity is starting to amaze me.

It's common knowledge Michelin played favorites with tires, which I already stated. It's also common knowledge the Bridgestones were head and shoulders better than Michelins last year. So you can't have it both ways, you can't say it was a disadvantage for Stoner on the 990, while not acknowledging it was also a huge advantage for Stoner last year.

Your stupidity and lack of knowledge and understanding of racing has amazed me for quite some time now.

Weird, because in "the doctor, the tornado, and the kentucky kid, nicky talks about fly-by-wire, and that was filmed before the 800's. I dont think all these electronics just FELL out of the sky when the 800s came out. A progression? Yes. But, they worked up to it over the years.

A progression yes, that took a quantum leap forward with the 800s. If you really knew what you were talking about, you would know this already.

Um, its obviously years in the making that went all the way through to the 125cc bikes. I suppose JD Beach is only leading the Rookies Cup because of the electronics

No that series is all about talent, as the bikes are all EXACTLY the same, which is not at all the case in MotoGP. So your analogy is fails miserably.

Why the tard face? You really expect the FIM to upgrade and improve ALL 18 tracks? Do you realize how much that would cost? Or...is this you just scratching for a reason to argue for Rossi?

First off ALL 18 tracks werent' a problem, only some of them. Take Suzuka, where Daijiro Kato was killed. That track had been unsafe for YEARS on any size bike, and the riders had complained about. Rather than try to fix it, they just axed it from the schedule.

Or to better point out the fatal flaw in the FIM's stupid thinking, they went to an 800cc bike to slow top speeds down. Well how often do bikes crash in the straights? Pretty much never. 800s can carry more corner speed than the 990s could dream of. Where do crashes most often occur? In the corners. So it could be argued that the 800s are less safe than the 990s as they are going faster where they are mostly likely to crash.

This is what happens when you have beauracrats and other idiots that have never turned a wheel in anger on a bike, and perhaps never even ridden a bike at all, making "safety" decisions. They have no clue what the problems really are, and their "solutions" demonstrate that.

watskooo · 07-24-2008, 10:20 AM

Originally Posted by ducatiduane

Back then? It was two years ago

and yea, they were THE tire, before tire rules prevented them from getting new tires over night. It is WELL known that michelin gives its best riders the tires they want. everyone else gets the left overs. im not debating ROSSI's choice of tires, im saying that stoner got crap when he rode the Honda...

Look, Michelin may have a different level of support for the factory teams, but Rossi certainly wasn't the only rider in that group. Stoner was riding for a satellite Honda team as a rookie, I'm sure he wasn't getting the bike upgrades during the season the Repsol guys were getting either. And anyone who thinks the factory Honda team (Repsol) riders weren't getting the tires they wanted before and after Rossi left is certifiable.

There's a reason you need to ride for a factory team to have a chance at the championship. At this point in the season I'm sure that the satellite Ducati riders aren't on the exact same machinery as Stoner either.

GixxerPete · 07-24-2008, 10:53 AM

Originally Posted by watskooo

Look, Michelin may have a different level of support for the factory teams, but Rossi certainly wasn't the only rider in that group. Stoner was riding for a satellite Honda team as a rookie, I'm sure he wasn't getting the bike upgrades during the season the Repsol guys were getting either. And anyone who thinks the factory Honda team (Repsol) riders weren't getting the tires they wanted before and after Rossi left is certifiable.

There's a reason you need to ride for a factory team to have a chance at the championship. At this point in the season I'm sure that the satellite Ducati riders aren't on the exact same machinery as Stoner either.

Funny you should mention that, as the Stoner fanbois all seem to think EVERY Ducati on the grid is EXACTLY like Casey's, (which is not even remotely the case) so the only reason Casey is doing so much better than them is he's just that much better of a rider. Which is a crock of shit, and only proves their ignorance as to how racing teams actually work.

Yet they are quick to point out Stoner was on a satellite Honda team and thus on inferior equipment as an excuse for his less than impressive season on the 990, while unable to acknowledge he's been on the best and fastest bike on the grid for the last two years and that played a HUGE part in his success.

Oh the hypocrisy...

PeteN95 · 07-24-2008, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by GixxerPete

Funny you should mention that, as the Stoner fanbois all seem to think EVERY Ducati on the grid is EXACTLY like Casey's, (which is not even remotely the case) so the only reason Casey is doing so much better than them is he's just that much better of a rider. Which is a crock of shit, and only proves their ignorance as to how racing teams actually work.

What about Melandri on the other factory bike? That one should be the same as Stoners. And he won 5 races on a 990, which according to you would make a more skilled rider??

Toucan · 07-24-2008, 12:17 PM

Originally Posted by PeteN95

What about Melandri on the other factory bike? That one should be the same as Stoners. And he won 5 races on a 990, which according to you would make a more skilled rider??

Just because they're on the same team doesn't mean the bikes are the same. Take Pedrosa/Hayden for example. They've raced with different engin

View Poll Results: Stoner or Rossi?
Stoner	23	21.10%
Rossi	86	78.90%
Voters: 109. You may not vote on this poll


07-23-2008, 02:26 PM	#81
Ciao998 MotoGP Contender Joined: Sep 2006 From: kennewick/wa I Ride: Ducati 998	The best rider takes full advantage of his package, whatever that may be. I hav'nt seen the telemetry yet. Don't care, I beleive you. Dont blame the FIM. Blame Honda, Kawasaki, Yamaha, and Suzuki.................Seriously. They're the ones who pushed for it. The FIM has to bend over for their race teams when it's that unanimous.


07-23-2008, 02:55 PM	#84
MadManx Superbiker Joined: Dec 2006 From: I hail from the wee town of Kirkland I Ride: for KaKaRacing	who the hell is Rossi?


07-23-2008, 03:01 PM	#85
watskooo Training Wheels Joined: Mar 2008 From: Spokane, WA I Ride: 06 SV650 Street & 02 RC51 Track	I'm going to disagree that Michelin played favorites and gave Rossi the "best tires". I've read various articles about how Rossi liked different, harder tires than everyone else. Colin Edwards tried Rossi's tires and couldn't use them at all, and he thinks it's better for Michelin to not have to develop two different types of now. Very rarely during races does anyone else run harder tire selections than Rossi (from the same tire manufacturer). There's a lot that has changed in the last couple years regarding tires. Michelin's advantage used to be the fact that they could manufacture tires overnight, and fly them to the race after they had data from the practice sessions. Their tires would then work incredibly well, but for a very narrow range of conditions. When tire selection was limited, the Bridgestones that worked over a wider range of conditions had an advantage.


07-24-2008, 09:54 AM	#95
eurospeed WMRRA Qualifier Joined: Aug 2005 From: medford,OR 97501 I Ride: '05 GSXR-600	I think stoner reacting like that its all what rossi needed. like rossi vs biaggi or rossi vs sete.