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Old 07-03-2012, 09:22 PM   #1
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From: San Diego county
MotoGp and WSBK penalites!
I don't like the current rage in penalties in the world racing events. I mean, if I go off the track at 120 MPH, I'm not really thinking about who I was in front of at the time I miraculously return to the track- I'm just trying to survive! Or, like Sofuglu at Assen, if I get penalized while racing and I don't understand their communications from the pits, how am I supposed to know I'm being docked 3 places?

I think you have 3 types of penalties: 1. jump start= drive through penalty. 2. Rough riding= disqualify or deduct certain amount of time per incident (i.e. minor=5 seconds, major=30 seconds or DQ, all added after race finish). 3. Cutting course= so many seconds per position gained (i.e. 3 seconds for 1, 6 seconds per 2, 12 seconds per 3, etc. imposed after race).

Unless you have a specific process to inform the riders their penalty (i.e. special flag with their number on it and a pit board detailing the action), then it's impossible to enforce.

And to penalize a person with loss of position is impossible, too. I mean, if they say "Go back 2 positions" can you just wait until someone passes you then repass them in the act of racing and claim that counts as one position? If it's "Go back 3 positions" but the 3rd bike is 2 minutes back on the last lap, is that fair? If they say go back X positions can you go back just enough to let them by then repass them with a set up in your favorite overtaking place and instantly repass them?

This all makes no sense and you'd think the FIM or higher authorities would have a better design for penalties in place. The "not profiting from an error" theory just doesn't cut it in racing. You don't know how much you've profited by a mistake as you're not really concentrating on the other racers, especially behind you!

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Old 07-03-2012, 09:30 PM   #2
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Joined: Apr 2006
From: HighBridge Snohomish, WA

I Ride: GSXR600,DRZsm
it makes sense.

if you go off track and advance is position, you must give up positions.
if you go off and gain too much advantage (time), you must lose some.

at their level they are not dummies and understand how the game works.

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Old 07-03-2012, 09:34 PM   #3
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Joined: Sep 2007
From: Bellingham

I Ride: SV1000s
I can't say if it's the penalties that stick out or the poor communication from race direction to the rider but I agree. I'm more of the belief that for minor incidents just issue a time penalty. Confusing messages/directions cause too much loss of focus. Let them concentrate on the job at hand and settle up at the end.

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Old 07-03-2012, 10:36 PM   #4
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“ Quote:
Originally Posted by SiCC View Post
it makes sense.

if you go off track and advance is position, you must give up positions.
if you go off and gain too much advantage (time), you must lose some.

at their level they are not dummies and understand how the game works.
Well, I've gone off the track at over 100 MPH and I have no idea who was behind me because: A. I don't have eyes in the back of my head and B. I was too busy trying not to die! YOu assume an off track excurasion would put you behind your pursuers but not always. What if a guy comes back on the track behind the group he was racing, passes everyone and wins the race only to find out that one racer he passed in reentry slowed down and pulled over? You have to go back one more position but you don't know that and figured you did all you could.

I think my points mention the loss of position but they obviously need a better way to communicate that to the rider. Most racers in the middle of a heated race don't think about the issues the Race Central has and if not clearly communicated to them (they don't have headset y'know). There needs to be a clearly defined procedure to communicate a penalty or loss of position (i.e. a purple flag with offending riders number on it and a pit board that says -P3 or something to indicate what to do). Plus, as mentioned, how is that going to be verified if the racer is dicing and changing positions all the time? Does another rider passing him count as 1 position back, then he repasses him and gets repassed= 2 positions back?

Even these pros get confused and many of them get black flagged and DQed over a lack of understanding of what they're being asked to do. It's happened to Biaggi, Sofuglu, Iannone, etc. and they're the top professionals in their class so it appears they don't understand the rules as they are.

Either change the rules to a time penalty after the race (i.e. let them race since they're in the middle of it anyhow and adrenalin is a hard thing to stop) or make a defined set of rules and parameters for everyone to understand so that an exact, mid-race penalty can be imposed.


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Old 07-04-2012, 01:14 AM   #5
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Joined: Mar 2006
From: spokane, wa

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Don't cheat. You know when you've fucked up. Give the position back.

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Old 07-04-2012, 04:06 PM   #6
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“ Quote:
Originally Posted by sin808 View Post
I can't say if it's the penalties that stick out or the poor communication from race direction to the rider but I agree. I'm more of the belief that for minor incidents just issue a time penalty. Confusing messages/directions cause too much loss of focus. Let them concentrate on the job at hand and settle up at the end.
I agree!



“ Quote:
Originally Posted by fastfoodfred View Post
Don't cheat. You know when you've fucked up. Give the position back.
Hmm, so if you don't know who you passed while out in the pea gravel saving your life, should you just go to the back of the grid just to be safe and race from there, losing all your points and then losing your sponsorship and team ride? Sounds good to me...


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Old 07-05-2012, 10:54 AM   #7
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Joined: Dec 2009
From: H.I.Ambacht, NL

I Ride: '07 LCR-Suzuki 1000
“ Quote:
SiCC
at their level they are not dummies and understand how the game works.
These are all valid points, but it shouldn't be forgotten that it is a rider's responsibility -- and usually in his best interest, too -- to be aware of the flag signals and the conditions/situations conveyed. Any experienced racer knows this & even when things are going smoothly will be watching out of the corner of his eye for something other than the green, or whether that black or blue flag was for him. Flags and sometimes lights -- in the case of a red flag -- are the only way officials or marshalls have to communicate with riders and this is pretty clearly spelled out in the rules which everyone at some time or another must go over.

http://www.fim-live.com/fileadmin/al...ed_version.pdf

It's their sandbox and their rules as well. At a sidecar race in Germany we were (apparently) creeping at the start, but still behind our line and black-flagged during the race. FIM rules prohibit any movement at all & our penalty would have been a pit lane ride through ... if my driver (or I) had seen the signal before it became a black flag indicating our DQ. The race director who explained how we could, with only a fine and no WC points for the day, race the next day cut short Alfons' 'But I didn't see --' objection with a curt, 'And don't tell me you didn't see the flag, because then I'll have to send you to an eye doctor before you can race again -- and you wouldn't like to do that, would you?'

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Old 07-05-2012, 05:39 PM   #8
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“ Quote:
Originally Posted by pass8enger View Post
These are all valid points, but it shouldn't be forgotten that it is a rider's responsibility -- and usually in his best interest, too -- to be aware of the flag signals and the conditions/situations conveyed. Any experienced racer knows this & even when things are going smoothly will be watching out of the corner of his eye for something other than the green, or whether that black or blue flag was for him. Flags and sometimes lights -- in the case of a red flag -- are the only way officials or marshalls have to communicate with riders and this is pretty clearly spelled out in the rules which everyone at some time or another must go over.

http://www.fim-live.com/fileadmin/al...ed_version.pdf

It's their sandbox and their rules as well. At a sidecar race in Germany we were (apparently) creeping at the start, but still behind our line and black-flagged during the race. FIM rules prohibit any movement at all & our penalty would have been a pit lane ride through ... if my driver (or I) had seen the signal before it became a black flag indicating our DQ. The race director who explained how we could, with only a fine and no WC points for the day, race the next day cut short Alfons' 'But I didn't see --' objection with a curt, 'And don't tell me you didn't see the flag, because then I'll have to send you to an eye doctor before you can race again -- and you wouldn't like to do that, would you?'
Interesting as the rules are a bit ambiguous. And I've personally never seen a clearly communicated pit board from the race officials that said specifically, "Racer #95, Go Back 3 Positions Behind Racer #676." That would make things clear but there's still lots of issues as mentioned....

The rules read:
3) Riders should use only the track and the pit-lane. However, if a rider
accidentally leaves the track then he may rejoin it at the place
indicated by the officials or at a place which does not provide an
advantage to him. Any infringement of this rule during the practices or
warm up will be penalised by the cancellation of the lap time
concerned and during the race, by a change of position decided by
the Race Direction.
The penalty will be first communicated to the team and then a
board will be displayed for the rider on the finish line during a
maximum of 5 laps. If the rider did not go back after the board
has been presented 5 times, he will be penalised by a ride
through.


And the rules say he will be "penalised" with a ride through yet the ones I've seen have been DQed completely for disregarding the 5 lap time limit. And what special flag do they offer to indicate a "Go back XXX positions?"

Try doing this with a club race, say, 70 riders at Infineon in the first lap. Do you think anyone will have any idea of how many riders they passed or "profited from" when they went off the track and came back on?

And, as mentioned, how clear are the rules? If someone is neck and neck with another rider and has to go back 1 position, is it okay that he let the other guy pass him momentarily then repass him, counting as 1 place back?

If he went off the track and came back on but one rider he "profited from" falls back 1 minute, is it fair that the errant rider has to wait 1 minute whereas the rest of the group he was dicing with goes on? Did the slower rider earn that position?

I think the argument is that the rules aren't clearly defined or implemented and there's no standard for the race official's communicating to the rider. If they had an electronic sign across the track that defines exactly what to do and when to do it, sure, no problem. But asking racers, in the heat of the moment, to know exactly who was behind you when you went careening off the track at high speed and barely saved your own life when you returned to the track is asking a bit too much.

I just wish they'd incorporate a less obtuse penalty/rule for this. The standard old time penalty seems to be the only way to fix it (i.e. 1 second or so for each rider he passed during his exit from the track, etc.), tacked onto the end of the race times/finish positions. Or, as mentioned, get a big frickin' electric sign that the race officials can really communicate with the riders.

I mean, it sucks to see a race leader or class champion (like Biaggi, etc. as mentioned), lose a world championship over something this subjective.

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Old 07-06-2012, 10:34 AM   #9
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Joined: Sep 2005
From: Jacinto

I Ride: Aprilia Mille R, Gixxer 600, Yamaha WR250, Yamaha TTR125
This thread is dumb.

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Old 07-06-2012, 12:14 PM   #10
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From: San Diego county
“ Quote:
Originally Posted by mnewell View Post
This thread is dumb.
Ha, ha! True, many threads are! Only of interest to the parties involved. Of course, no one forces anyone to read this drivel- strictly volunteer!


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Old 07-06-2012, 12:50 PM   #11
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Joined: Feb 2006
From: Marysville, WA

I Ride: w/ Optimum Performance Rider Training
Yeah...
I think in practice, it's really not that big of a deal. Sure, every once in a while a penalty seems a bit goofy.

Seriously - if you run off the track at 99% of the racetracks out there, you're most definitely NOT passing anyone. All you have to do is make sure you re-enter safely.

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Old 07-06-2012, 01:26 PM   #12
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Joined: Mar 2007
From: Seattle, WA
Blog Entries: 1

I Ride: BMW K1200GT, KTM 990 Adv, Ducati SF
Sofuoglu's lucky they didn't penalize him more. Should be DQ'd for the next three races at least, IMO . . . give him a bit of time to think about not being a dangerous bonehead and to grow up.

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Old 07-12-2012, 12:15 PM   #13
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Joined: Jun 2012
From: Medford, OR

I Ride: Wearing ears.
“ Quote:
Originally Posted by FireDave View Post
Sofuoglu's lucky they didn't penalize him more. Should be DQ'd for the next three races at least, IMO . . . give him a bit of time to think about not being a dangerous bonehead and to grow up.
I agree. It's one thing to blow a turn and come back not knowing exactly where to be, but he intentionally [did something] that could have been very dangerous. I thought a black flag/DQ would have been immediate, rather than the place penalty. The fact that he stayed on and kept going should have DQd him for the next race too (and I (used to) like Sofouglu).

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Old 07-12-2012, 01:25 PM   #14
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Joined: Mar 2008
From: Poulsbo, WA

I Ride: 1290 SDR, WR250X, SV650
Im a big sofuoglu fan, but he acted like a douche. He shoulda gotten the hammer dropped on 'em.

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Old 07-12-2012, 02:14 PM   #15
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Joined: Jun 2007
From: Seattle

I Ride: YZF750, HawkGT, YSR50, VT1100(parting), '73 CB350F, SV650, CB550F, CB175
“ Quote:
Originally Posted by FireDave View Post
Sofuoglu's lucky they didn't penalize him more. Should be DQ'd for the next three races at least, IMO . . . give him a bit of time to think about not being a dangerous bonehead and to grow up.
Maybe three races would have been a little harsh, but a black flag for that race for sure. That communication should have been pretty easy to understand. He would have kept on going like usual, then ban him for the next race too.

I wouldn't mind if he found something else to do other than racing.

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Old 07-12-2012, 10:31 PM   #16
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Politics plays a hand in everything international. Maybe DORNA is afraid of a reprisal from Turkey?? Or, being the only Turkish rider to ever win anything in life, maybe the Turkish audiences are paying big money and they were afraid to DQ him this time. Any other rider would have been zapped I'm sure... Biaggi and Ianonni were and they're popular Italians!!

Penalties are fickle, the penalty process is worse!

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Old 07-14-2012, 11:24 AM   #17
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Joined: Aug 2010
From: SoKingCo, WA

I Ride: ... here and there
“ Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzzbutt View Post
Politics plays a hand in everything international. Maybe DORNA is afraid of a reprisal from Turkey?? Or, being the only Turkish rider to ever win anything in life, maybe the Turkish audiences are paying big money and they were afraid to DQ him this time. Any other rider would have been zapped I'm sure... Biaggi and Ianonni were and they're popular Italians!!

Penalties are fickle, the penalty process is worse!

DORNA has nothing to so with Sofuoglu; different series and organization.

Of course, DORNA has everything to do with their next golden boy, Marquez, who should have been increasingly penalized (starting with Qatar) with his continued dangerous riding.

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Old 07-18-2012, 03:59 PM   #18
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Joined: Dec 2005
From: Seattle, WA
Blog Entries: 13

I Ride: on the Isle of Man
Sofuoglu is a douchebag of the highest order, and I wouldn't piss on him if he were on fire. He wasn't penalized positions because he ran off track, he was meatball-flagged for running off track. He was penalized positions because he saw the meatball and thought, "Fuck them, I've got three laps to do my ride-through before they DQ me and there's only two left, if I just don't do the ride-through I should get away with it."

Regarding penalties, the "return any positions gained" rules are effective and fair, and aimed at runoff roads and chicane reliefs specifically, not necessarily any time you run off. If you go off the track and end up cutting a chicane, you'll know very well what you did and you'll have a pretty good idea of who you were with/where you were in the pack.

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