PNW Riders

Pony Trekker · 08-22-2009, 09:16 PM

http://www.kansascity.com/105/story/1380008.html

By BRAD COOPER
The Kansas City Star

The red light will soon be streaked with shades of gray.

For most of us behind the wheel, red means stop. But if you’re riding a motorcycle or a bicycle in Missouri, it will mean stop, but only sort of.

A new Missouri law that takes effect Aug. 28 allows motorcycle and bike riders to run red lights but only if they stop first and the signal remains red for an “unreasonable time.”

Missouri will be one of eight states that have similar laws, which are intended to address occasions when motorcycles or bikes aren’t detected by traffic signal sensors in the road.

When that happens, the rider sits at an intersection when no cross traffic is coming.

“It’s very annoying, especially at this time of year when it’s getting hot and you’re sitting and you’re sitting there and you’re sitting there,” said motorcycle rider Alan Greer of Johnson County, Mo. “One minute can feel like an eternity.”

Some traffic signals are triggered by a magnetic reaction coupled with wires embedded in the pavement.

The wires are sized in such a way that they are more likely to be tripped by a car or truck, said Pete terHorst, spokesman for the American Motorcycle Association.

Some motorcycles and bikes tend not to trip the signal because they have less mass and are made with parts that aren’t attracted to a magnet.

“It’s very common for a bike to come up to a traffic signal and it doesn’t change,” said Brent Hugh, executive director of the Missouri Bicycle Federation.

Missouri is the eighth state to pass this kind of law since 2002, the American Motorcycle Association said, and three other states considered legislation this year. The trend makes state and federal traffic safety experts uneasy because the onus is now on the riders to decide when it’s safe to proceed.

“Anytime you have people making judgments…it might increase the opportunity for a crash,” said Leanna Depue, director of highway safety for the Missouri Department of Transportation.

Some riders, though, say the law simply sanctions what’s practiced already.

“There’s not a rider alive who hasn’t at some point done exactly what the law is designed to make legal,” said motorcycle driver Bob Rippy of the Village of Loch Lloyd.

Rippy said the law doesn’t allow motorcyclists to “blast” through a red light. He compared it to the latitude drivers are given when they turn right on red.

Motorcyclists and bicyclists alike would be allowed to proceed through a red light only if:

•They come to a complete stop first.

•The signal continues to show a red light for an “unreasonable time.”

•The signal is malfunctioning or failed to detect a cycle.

•Traffic on the cross street doesn’t pose a hazard.

Engineers and traffic safety experts say the law should be applied mostly at intersections with detection sensors in the road. Detection should be less of a problem where signals are controlled by cameras.

“We’re hoping with the technology that’s out there, there’s going to be fewer intersections that aren’t going to recognize the motorcycle,” Depue said.

Kansas City, for instance, has about 600 intersections controlled by traffic signals. Only about a fourth of them have sensors in the pavement.

Traffic engineers acknowledge that motorcycles and bikes might not be detected at times. This can occur when the cycle stops beyond the white “stop bar” or when it’s too close to either side of the lane.

“I think where we have detection in place, you’re probably going to get the vehicle 90 percent of the time,” said John Miller, state traffic safety engineer for MoDOT.

Miller, however, expressed concern about impatient bikers at signals that are timed to the traffic flow. He fears some riders might not understand the timing and run the light before it completes its cycle, which can take a minute or two.

Then there’s the red-light camera issue in Kansas City.

A picture would be taken of the red-light runner, but police should be able to apply the law by looking at video of the possible violation, said Lowell Gard, a Kansas City prosecutor. If you do get a ticket, he said, the law will give you a defense.

“As a practical matter the police have always applied that,” Gard said. “If a stop light is obviously malfunctioning or hasn’t detected (a vehicle), they’re not going to write you a ticket for proceeding through an empty intersection.”

Hugh believes bikers can proceed safely if they make sure cross traffic has cleared, but said a better solution is for engineers to ensure that signals recognize bicycle riders.

The Federal Highway Administration doesn’t have jurisdiction on the issue and says research is limited. But it sides with Hugh on the signal issue.

“We would strongly urge states to look at traffic devices and to adjust them and make sure they work before they implement such laws,” said spokeswoman Nancy Singer.

Robusto · 08-22-2009, 09:19 PM

Idaho already has a similiar law for bicycles, at stop lights.

DareBear · 08-22-2009, 09:51 PM

sounds kinda sketchy....

DullJack · 08-23-2009, 12:11 AM

Originally Posted by Pony Trekker

http://www.kansascity.com/105/story/1380008.html

The trend makes state and federal traffic safety experts uneasy because the onus is now on the riders to decide when it’s safe to proceed.

“Anytime you have people making judgments…it might increase the opportunity for a crash,” said Leanna Depue, director of highway safety for the Missouri Department of Transportation.

WTF? Really?

nighthawker · 08-23-2009, 11:27 AM

ill sit for two cycles then proceed. in my time riding ive only had to do that a few times. i hvent encountered too many lights that dont recognize me.

Oly ZX · 08-23-2009, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by Pony Trekker
http://www.kansascity.com/105/story/1380008.html

The trend makes state and federal traffic safety experts uneasy because the onus is now on the riders to decide when it’s safe to proceed.

“Anytime you have people making judgments…it might increase the opportunity for a crash,” said Leanna Depue, director of highway safety for the Missouri Department of Transportation.

This is the way it is supposed to be. Individuals who are responsible for themselves. The FG doesn;t want that at all; of course they are "uneasy" heaven forbid an individual makes a responsibile desicion on their own.

Robusto · 08-23-2009, 01:39 PM

Originally Posted by Oly ZX

Originally Posted by Pony Trekker
http://www.kansascity.com/105/story/1380008.html

The trend makes state and federal traffic safety experts uneasy because the onus is now on the riders to decide when it’s safe to proceed.

“Anytime you have people making judgments…it might increase the opportunity for a crash,” said Leanna Depue, director of highway safety for the Missouri Department of Transportation.

This is the way it is supposed to be. Individuals who are responsible for themselves. The FG doesn;t want that at all; of course they are "uneasy" heaven forbid an individual makes a responsibile desicion on their own.

Amen!!!!

speedholes · 08-24-2009, 07:48 AM

I thought Oregon had a law like this.......I think it is something like you must sit for 2 cycles, then you can run it. It falls under the "defective signal" clause.

Driftertank · 08-24-2009, 08:06 AM

Originally Posted by Oly ZX

Originally Posted by Pony Trekker
http://www.kansascity.com/105/story/1380008.html

The trend makes state and federal traffic safety experts uneasy because the onus is now on the riders to decide when it’s safe to proceed.

“Anytime you have people making judgments…it might increase the opportunity for a crash,” said Leanna Depue, director of highway safety for the Missouri Department of Transportation.

This is the way it is supposed to be. Individuals who are responsible for themselves. The FG doesn;t want that at all; of course they are "uneasy" heaven forbid an individual makes a responsibile desicion on their own.

Yeah....

I mean WHAT THE FUCK? "We don't think it's a good idea for motorists to have to make decisions. Thinking is too hard, you might get in a wreck... "

Fine, put everyone else on the fucking bus, and let us motorcyclists use the roads. WE already know how to think, make decisions, judge the traffic around us, and stay out of the way. Or else we DIE...

speedholes · 08-24-2009, 08:20 AM

Originally Posted by Driftertank

Yeah....

I mean WHAT THE FUCK? "We don't think it's a good idea for motorists to have to make decisions. Thinking is too hard, you might get in a wreck... "

Fine, put everyone else on the fucking bus, and let us motorcyclists use the roads. WE already know how to think, make decisions, judge the traffic around us, and stay out of the way. Or else we DIE...

I disagree.

MANY people who ride motorcycles (notice I do not say "motorcyclists") don't know how to ride in a safe manner, let alone make reasonable decisions.

DesmoDave · 08-24-2009, 08:23 AM

Damn, I thought WA already had this clause/law.

DullJack · 08-24-2009, 08:26 AM

Originally Posted by speedholes

I disagree.

MANY people who ride motorcycles (notice I do not say "motorcyclists") don't know how to ride in a safe manner, let alone make reasonable decisions.

And it only takes one tangle with a semi then that incompetent motorcyclist won't ever have to worry about making a bad judgment again. It's Darwinism in action.

Are_Six · 08-24-2009, 08:29 AM

I think Washington does. Same type of thing. You have to wait one complete cycle, then just go ahead and run it. I had to do that about a week ago. Just sitting at a light with cars behind me, but only I was in the sensored area. Ended up running the light, the car behind pulled up, and sure enough they got a green 15 seconds or so later. She caught up to me at the next light (which she probably had to trip for me) but it had gone to 2 lanes.

FireDave · 08-24-2009, 09:45 AM

RCW says you can proceed if the "signal is malfunctioning". And only if. No mention at all of one cycle, two, or anything else.

And it's in the eye of the beholder what is "malfunctioning".

My .02: If a in-road sensor doesn't detect your vehicle, as it's designed to do, it's malfunctioning.

ackra · 08-24-2009, 07:33 PM

Recently,I recently purchased directional turn signals for my bike and the 1st day I used them they saved my life at an intersection where a truck was making a right turn.
It's a no brainer. I purchased mine at www.safetybikesignals.com
Why aren't more riders using them?

nighthawker · 08-24-2009, 09:03 PM

Originally Posted by ackra

Recently,I recently purchased directional turn signals for my bike and the 1st day I used them they saved my life at an intersection where a truck was making a right turn.
It's a no brainer. I purchased mine at www.safetybikesignals.com
Why aren't more riders using them?

well have to ask the cyclists why they dont use them..
most riders i know already use the ones the have.

Lynk · 08-24-2009, 09:29 PM

Originally Posted by Are_Six

I think Washington does. Same type of thing. You have to wait one complete cycle, then just go ahead and run it. I had to do that about a week ago. Just sitting at a light with cars behind me, but only I was in the sensored area. Ended up running the light, the car behind pulled up, and sure enough they got a green 15 seconds or so later. She caught up to me at the next light (which she probably had to trip for me) but it had gone to 2 lanes.

A proposal makes its way through state house and senate meetings every year. I don't believe that it has yet been passed through legislation.

Originally Posted by FireDave

RCW says you can proceed if the "signal is malfunctioning". And only if. No mention at all of one cycle, two, or anything else.

And it's in the eye of the beholder what is "malfunctioning".

My .02: If a in-road sensor doesn't detect your vehicle, as it's designed to do, it's malfunctioning.

Citation, please?


08-22-2009, 09:16 PM	#1
Pony Trekker Pit Crew Joined: Jul 2009 From: Winston, OR I Ride: Nighthawk S 700, Royal Enfield Bullet 500	New Missouri law allows motorcyclists, bicycles to run red lights http://www.kansascity.com/105/story/1380008.html By BRAD COOPER The Kansas City Star The red light will soon be streaked with shades of gray. For most of us behind the wheel, red means stop. But if you’re riding a motorcycle or a bicycle in Missouri, it will mean stop, but only sort of. A new Missouri law that takes effect Aug. 28 allows motorcycle and bike riders to run red lights but only if they stop first and the signal remains red for an “unreasonable time.” Missouri will be one of eight states that have similar laws, which are intended to address occasions when motorcycles or bikes aren’t detected by traffic signal sensors in the road. When that happens, the rider sits at an intersection when no cross traffic is coming. “It’s very annoying, especially at this time of year when it’s getting hot and you’re sitting and you’re sitting there and you’re sitting there,” said motorcycle rider Alan Greer of Johnson County, Mo. “One minute can feel like an eternity.” Some traffic signals are triggered by a magnetic reaction coupled with wires embedded in the pavement. The wires are sized in such a way that they are more likely to be tripped by a car or truck, said Pete terHorst, spokesman for the American Motorcycle Association. Some motorcycles and bikes tend not to trip the signal because they have less mass and are made with parts that aren’t attracted to a magnet. “It’s very common for a bike to come up to a traffic signal and it doesn’t change,” said Brent Hugh, executive director of the Missouri Bicycle Federation. Missouri is the eighth state to pass this kind of law since 2002, the American Motorcycle Association said, and three other states considered legislation this year. The trend makes state and federal traffic safety experts uneasy because the onus is now on the riders to decide when it’s safe to proceed. “Anytime you have people making judgments…it might increase the opportunity for a crash,” said Leanna Depue, director of highway safety for the Missouri Department of Transportation. Some riders, though, say the law simply sanctions what’s practiced already. “There’s not a rider alive who hasn’t at some point done exactly what the law is designed to make legal,” said motorcycle driver Bob Rippy of the Village of Loch Lloyd. Rippy said the law doesn’t allow motorcyclists to “blast” through a red light. He compared it to the latitude drivers are given when they turn right on red. Motorcyclists and bicyclists alike would be allowed to proceed through a red light only if: •They come to a complete stop first. •The signal continues to show a red light for an “unreasonable time.” •The signal is malfunctioning or failed to detect a cycle. •Traffic on the cross street doesn’t pose a hazard. Engineers and traffic safety experts say the law should be applied mostly at intersections with detection sensors in the road. Detection should be less of a problem where signals are controlled by cameras. “We’re hoping with the technology that’s out there, there’s going to be fewer intersections that aren’t going to recognize the motorcycle,” Depue said. Kansas City, for instance, has about 600 intersections controlled by traffic signals. Only about a fourth of them have sensors in the pavement. Traffic engineers acknowledge that motorcycles and bikes might not be detected at times. This can occur when the cycle stops beyond the white “stop bar” or when it’s too close to either side of the lane. “I think where we have detection in place, you’re probably going to get the vehicle 90 percent of the time,” said John Miller, state traffic safety engineer for MoDOT. Miller, however, expressed concern about impatient bikers at signals that are timed to the traffic flow. He fears some riders might not understand the timing and run the light before it completes its cycle, which can take a minute or two. Then there’s the red-light camera issue in Kansas City. A picture would be taken of the red-light runner, but police should be able to apply the law by looking at video of the possible violation, said Lowell Gard, a Kansas City prosecutor. If you do get a ticket, he said, the law will give you a defense. “As a practical matter the police have always applied that,” Gard said. “If a stop light is obviously malfunctioning or hasn’t detected (a vehicle), they’re not going to write you a ticket for proceeding through an empty intersection.” Hugh believes bikers can proceed safely if they make sure cross traffic has cleared, but said a better solution is for engineers to ensure that signals recognize bicycle riders. The Federal Highway Administration doesn’t have jurisdiction on the issue and says research is limited. But it sides with Hugh on the signal issue. “We would strongly urge states to look at traffic devices and to adjust them and make sure they work before they implement such laws,” said spokeswoman Nancy Singer. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


08-22-2009, 09:19 PM	#2
Robusto Retired Joined: Aug 2006 From: Spokane, WA I Ride: Cuz' it makes me smile!	Idaho already has a similiar law for bicycles, at stop lights. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


08-22-2009, 09:51 PM	#3
DareBear Endorsed Joined: Jun 2009 From: Coquille, Oregon I Ride: '09 ninja 250	sounds kinda sketchy.... __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


08-23-2009, 11:27 AM	#5
nighthawker Superbiker Joined: Mar 2009 From: sutherlin, oregon I Ride: cb750	ill sit for two cycles then proceed. in my time riding ive only had to do that a few times. i hvent encountered too many lights that dont recognize me. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


08-23-2009, 11:37 AM	#6
Oly ZX Daytime Adventure Seeker Joined: Jan 2006 From: Olympia,Wa. Blog Entries: 2 I Ride: '04 ZX12 '05 ZX10	Originally Posted by Pony Trekker http://www.kansascity.com/105/story/1380008.html The trend makes state and federal traffic safety experts uneasy because the onus is now on the riders to decide when it’s safe to proceed. “Anytime you have people making judgments…it might increase the opportunity for a crash,” said Leanna Depue, director of highway safety for the Missouri Department of Transportation. This is the way it is supposed to be. Individuals who are responsible for themselves. The FG doesn;t want that at all; of course they are "uneasy" heaven forbid an individual makes a responsibile desicion on their own. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter

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08-24-2009, 07:48 AM	#8
speedholes Pit Crew Joined: Mar 2009 From: Roseburg, OR Blog Entries: 1 I Ride: R1100S	I thought Oregon had a law like this.......I think it is something like you must sit for 2 cycles, then you can run it. It falls under the "defective signal" clause. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


08-24-2009, 08:23 AM	#11
DesmoDave Superbiker Joined: Apr 2008 From: Bowels of Hell I Ride: white & nerdy.	Damn, I thought WA already had this clause/law. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


08-24-2009, 08:29 AM	#13
Are_Six Superbiker Joined: Mar 2006 From: Seattle I Ride: Ducati 1098 (red of course)	I think Washington does. Same type of thing. You have to wait one complete cycle, then just go ahead and run it. I had to do that about a week ago. Just sitting at a light with cars behind me, but only I was in the sensored area. Ended up running the light, the car behind pulled up, and sure enough they got a green 15 seconds or so later. She caught up to me at the next light (which she probably had to trip for me) but it had gone to 2 lanes. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


08-24-2009, 09:45 AM	#14
FireDave Zone Head Joined: Mar 2007 From: Seattle, WA Blog Entries: 1 I Ride: BMW K1200GT--- R.I.P., Triumph Scrambler, Ducati 1098S	RCW says you can proceed if the "signal is malfunctioning". And only if. No mention at all of one cycle, two, or anything else. And it's in the eye of the beholder what is "malfunctioning". My .02: If a in-road sensor doesn't detect your vehicle, as it's designed to do, it's malfunctioning. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


08-24-2009, 07:33 PM	#15
ackra Newbie Joined: Aug 2009 From: los angeles	Bicycle Turn Signals Recently,I recently purchased directional turn signals for my bike and the 1st day I used them they saved my life at an intersection where a truck was making a right turn. It's a no brainer. I purchased mine at www.safetybikesignals.com Why aren't more riders using them? __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter

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