PNW Riders

OneTrack · 06-18-2009, 02:48 PM

Ok, the other thread was closed before I could post. This is building off of what Matt started, just trying to be constructive.

I spent some time going through the ORS looking specifically for statutes that pertain to vehicle lighting. From what I can gather the ORS has requirements for general location, color, and visibility (i.e. distance visible from vehicle) of all lights and reflectors. Beyond that it defers to DOT requirements for "installation, adjustment and aiming."

Well, the ODOT does some useless deferring of its own, with a bit of tail chasing thrown in for good measure. So begins the hunt.

After a bunch of searching on the ODOT, DOT and NHTSA sites I finally find a reference to something called the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard (FMVSS) No. 108: Lamps, reflective devices, and associated equipment. A little more searching leads here http://www.access.gpo.gov

Forced to read the full text (see 571.108) I found a bunch of references to SAE standards from the 1970s and '60s in regard to signals and lighting. I can't find the specific text for the SAE standards, but I don't think it matters. There is a very specific section in FMVSS No. 108 (S5.1.1.25) that reads "Each turn signal lamp on a motorcycle manufactured on and after January 1, 1973, shall have an effective projected luminous area of not less than 3\1/2\ square inches."

I haven’t even gotten into the tail lights section really. In addition to the luminous/candle power and illuminated area requirements there are an endless number of reflective and durability requirements. Basically, it is mind bendingly complex to be DOT compliant (as required by default of our own state statutes/laws). Supposedly, even most aftermarket parts labeled "DOT Approved" are not even close. Having non OEM lighting is not by default illegal, but there is a good chance it is not compliant.

That is as far as I want to go with this for now. My unemployed ass can only spare so much time. I hope this has excited you as much as it did me...

K2TheM · 06-18-2009, 03:39 PM

I think over the past month I've heard more people getting pulled over on citation of their lights being to small. Up until that point I've only ever heard of people getting pulled over for their lights being to close together.

I remember reading someplace that a motorcycle needs to have it's turn signals 15 inches apart in the front and 8 inches apart in the rear.

Ironhead · 06-18-2009, 04:48 PM

One track...........that is impressive! Honestly say that you did not cut/paste one thing in that post.

Still. Impressive! It still equates to tail chasing statutes=

OneTrack · 06-18-2009, 11:17 PM

Yeah, the info I've posted so far doesn't even scratch the surface. I've pretty much only identified where the "black box" the cop showed Todd comes from. I'm pretty good with research and I can't beleive how hard it was to find this seemingly simple stuff.

I'm going to see what else I can nail down. Vehicle lighting...I must be bored.

midvalleysuperbiker · 06-19-2009, 09:25 AM

Important research, thanks for your efforts.

Given Cpl Timmy's creiteria I don't think the stock signals on my Ducati or Moto Guzzi are legal!
The front signals on my Aprilia are aftermarket LED and lots brighter than the stock but if Cpl Timmy pulls me over I probably will get a ticket.

rdailey · 06-19-2009, 11:48 AM

Hey guys,

This is a much better (well written and more informative) thread than the one I started the other day while I was still in an angry stupor from being stalked and tagged by Robocop Dezotell.
I'm glad I stumbled across this site while I was searching for solutions to my problem. There's a lot of good information and humor that you guys offer and I hope to contribute on both levels in the very near future. Not sure why my posts come off as "whining" as some said, because I'm not like that in real life. Must be my poor writing skills...........

Waaaaaaaaaaa. I'm a learning noob here.

anyway, hope to meet and ride with you soon.

Ironhead · 06-19-2009, 12:32 PM

No sweat RD! I didnt see your post as whiny in any way shape or form. Keep us informed on the outcome of this citation. Hopefully One-track with his incredible ability to research this subject will help you when court day comes. Dont let your previous post make you gun-shy! There are asshats in every forum. Hope to ride with you soon!

PS. Most of the Asshats are in the Salem Group......Just a word of caution. If Alcorn wants to cook Bacon with you and the Crisco kid......dont go.......just say'in.........

rdailey · 06-20-2009, 10:36 PM

Originally Posted by Ironhead

No sweat RD! I didnt see your post as whiny in any way shape or form. Keep us informed on the outcome of this citation. Hopefully One-track with his incredible ability to research this subject will help you when court day comes. Dont let your previous post make you gun-shy! There are asshats in every forum. Hope to ride with you soon!

PS. Most of the Asshats are in the Salem Group......Just a word of caution. If Alcorn wants to cook Bacon with you and the Crisco kid......dont go.......just say'in.........

Thanks Ironhead!!!!!
and thanks for the warning about Alcorn and Crisco Kid. I'll make sure I never turn my back to them.

JonXX · 07-03-2009, 10:03 PM

3 1/2 square inches (fmvss 10

is not anywhere near the same as a 3 1/2 inch square.

Cpl ditzell's "guide template" is wrong.

JonXX · 07-03-2009, 10:03 PM

Double post monster

Olequa · 07-03-2009, 11:40 PM

I looked and looked, could find nothing in the Oregon Revised Statutes about the proper placement of turn signals. It often happens, cities make little rules about things that cannot be supported by state law.

Unless there is something in the Oregon Revised Statutes about how turn signals must be placed on a motorcycle, then getting a ticket for improper signal light placement is probably unconstitutional in view of Oregon State law. Moreover, I bet there is "no penalty" shown in the ORS for no signals at all. Until challenged, many city laws are incorrect.

midvalleysuperbiker · 07-04-2009, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by Olequa

I looked and looked, could find nothing in the Oregon Revised Statutes about the proper placement of turn signals. It often happens, cities make little rules about things that cannot be supported by state law.

Unless there is something in the Oregon Revised Statutes about how turn signals must be placed on a motorcycle, then getting a ticket for improper signal light placement is probably unconstitutional in view of Oregon State law. Moreover, I bet there is "no penalty" shown in the ORS for no signals at all. Until challenged, many city laws are incorrect.

Exactly why these B S tickets need to be challenged.
For me it would cost more to take time off of work to challenge a ticket than just paying the $150 but a stand MUST be made.

Officer Tim is OUT OF CONTROL!

KevinD · 07-04-2009, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by Olequa

I looked and looked, could find nothing in the Oregon Revised Statutes about the proper placement of turn signals.

Odd...
The RCW has all the details. I'm surprised that OR doesn't even reference some DOT or other federal standard.
KevinD

starkmojo · 07-04-2009, 01:15 PM

when I redid the lights on mine it said something about them being visible from a minimum distance and colors (amber front, amber rear unless also break lights then red etc) and that the break light had to have a plate light... but i dont recall any size mattering

But size ALWAYS matters.

ALCORN69 · 07-04-2009, 04:17 PM

Originally Posted by starkmojo

But size ALWAYS matters.

Especially to traffic cops, usually SUPER SIZE

Olequa · 07-04-2009, 10:31 PM

I finally found the ORS about motorcycle turn signals. Very general, nothing specific, the statute adopts the Department of Transportation standards, which are also vague and general. The DOT relies upon the sae (society of automotive enginers). You can't read those publications, without buying them!! Oregon's motorcycle operators study book is vague.

So, it boils down to vague Oregon laws about motorcycle turn signal lights. Those laws are unreasonably hidden from the Oregon public.

Where does JQ Public go to get solid information about motorcycle turn signals? An Oregon government publication? So, the Salem police have some kind of chart about motorcycle lighting, a chart that is not available to JQ Public? Show me the chart in a free Oregon State publication! Show me!

How can a motorcyclist abide by Oregon laws that are fuzzy and unclear?

rdailey · 07-05-2009, 12:34 AM

Originally Posted by Olequa

I finally found the ORS about motorcycle turn signals. Very general, nothing specific, the statute adopts the Department of Transportation standards, which are also vague and general. The DOT relies upon the sae (society of automotive enginers). You can't read those publications, without buying them!! Oregon's motorcycle operators study book is vague.

So, it boils down to vague Oregon laws about motorcycle turn signal lights. Those laws are unreasonably hidden from the Oregon public.

Where does JQ Public go to get solid information about motorcycle turn signals? An Oregon government publication? So, the Salem police have some kind of chart about motorcycle lighting, a chart that is not available to JQ Public? Show me the chart in a free Oregon State publication! Show me!

How can a motorcyclist abide by Oregon laws that are fuzzy and unclear?

Dezotell, Do you have an intelligent answer to this? I didn't think so.

makotosun · 07-05-2009, 01:35 AM

If the requirement is for 3.5 square inches of lens, then the diameter of the lens needs to be approximately 2.111" across. Assuming that is the required size.

Area = 3.14 * Radius squared.

Been awhile since I needed to do that kind of math, but I believe that is the formula?

Outofsync · 07-05-2009, 01:41 AM

Originally Posted by makotosun

If the requirement is for 3.5 square inches of lens, then the diameter of the lens needs to be approximately 2.111" across. Assuming that is the required size.

Area = 3.14 * Radius squared.

Been awhile since I needed to do that kind of math, but I believe that is the formula?

yup

midvalleysuperbiker · 07-05-2009, 09:41 AM

Originally Posted by makotosun

If the requirement is for 3.5 square inches of lens, then the diameter of the lens needs to be approximately 2.111" across. Assuming that is the required size.

Area = 3.14 * Radius squared.

Been awhile since I needed to do that kind of math, but I believe that is the formula?

The stock turnsignals on my 07 Ducati are not in compliance with this!
Do I risk a ticket riding this motorcycle in Tim Dezotell's Salem?
A motorcycle I enjoy riding and worked hard to buy and maintain!
The only motorcycle I own that fully complies with the standard Dezotell waves around is my FJR and I bet even on that one he can find something to ticket me for.

Ironhead · 07-06-2009, 10:58 AM

Let me Muddy the waters up a little. Lets toss Oregon Law out. Focus on Federal only due to the fact that this is what is being enforced. Try and follow this mess.
S571.108 Standard No. 108. Lamps reflective devices, and associated equipment.
Sect S3 Application
(a) Passenger cars, multipurpose passenger vehicles, trucks, buses, trailers and motorcycles.

This section defines Scope, Purpose and defines terminology. I will skip to the definition of " Effective projected luminous lens area"
Means that area of the projection on a plane perpendicular to the lamp axis of that portion of the light-emitting surface that directs light to the photometric test pattern, and does not include mounting hole bosses, reflex reflector area, beads or rims that may glow or produce small areas of increased intensity as a result of uncontolled light from small areas (1/2 deg. radius around the test point).

Section S5.1.1.7 A motorcycle turn signal lamp need meet only one-half of the minimum photometric values specified in Table 1 and Table 3 of SAE J588 NOV84 Turn signal Lamps.

Section S5.1.1.25 Each turn signal lamp on a motorcycle manufactured on and after Jan. 1, 1973, shall have an effective projected luminous area of not less that 3 1/2 square inches.

Notice in section S5.1.1.25 that the word "lens" is not included in effective projected luminous area.

Here is my question. By definition. Is the signal to physically measure 3 1/2 square inches? Or does the light have to "project" an area on the photometric test pattern that measure this?

Baystr · 07-06-2009, 11:04 AM

my head hurts.......

smoothytaggert · 07-06-2009, 11:51 AM

anyone do rear halogen headlights just to spite?
what they can't see they can't catch...

KevinD · 07-06-2009, 01:09 PM

Originally Posted by Ironhead

Here is my question. By definition. Is the signal to physically measure 3 1/2 square inches? Or does the light have to "project" an area on the photometric test pattern that measure this?

I read that the projected area on the test pattern needs to measure 3½ in².
But at what distance from the test pattern?
KevinD

Ironhead · 07-06-2009, 03:04 PM

Kevin, That is the way I read it as well. Mind you I dont do drugs or math either if that tells you anything!

But as usual. Federal acts require mulitple reference books.
For example:
S7.9.2 A motorcycle manufactured on or after September 1,2000, shall be equipped with-
(a) A headlight system designed to conform to SAE Standard J584 Motorcycle headlamps April 1964 with the photometric specifications of Figure 32 and the upper beam aimability specifications of paragraph S7.9.3

So If I dig in a little more. Im sure I can find those specifications listed some where! My issue was one of reflective light vs physical size.

Thank you for the input!

SRWitt · 07-06-2009, 03:16 PM

Originally Posted by smoothytaggert

what they can't see they can't catch...

Is that the excuse your wifey gives ya?

/thread jack

Olequa · 07-06-2009, 08:25 PM

There is light which looks like a star at night. Not real big. The source of the light is a little over One hundred thousand light years across in size and a billion or so light years away.

So, the projected light from a motorcycle light, it's the distance from which it is measured that counts, and we don't know that distance. That distance is buried in the SAE materials that you have to buy.

Busa Girl · 07-08-2009, 08:13 AM

I had insomnia last night - started reading the rules and regs - fell asleep.


06-18-2009, 02:48 PM	#1
OneTrack Endorsed Joined: Apr 2008 From: Tualatin I Ride: the bench	Motorcycle Lighting Ok, the other thread was closed before I could post. This is building off of what Matt started, just trying to be constructive. I spent some time going through the ORS looking specifically for statutes that pertain to vehicle lighting. From what I can gather the ORS has requirements for general location, color, and visibility (i.e. distance visible from vehicle) of all lights and reflectors. Beyond that it defers to DOT requirements for "installation, adjustment and aiming." Well, the ODOT does some useless deferring of its own, with a bit of tail chasing thrown in for good measure. So begins the hunt. After a bunch of searching on the ODOT, DOT and NHTSA sites I finally find a reference to something called the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard (FMVSS) No. 108: Lamps, reflective devices, and associated equipment. A little more searching leads here http://www.access.gpo.gov Forced to read the full text (see 571.108) I found a bunch of references to SAE standards from the 1970s and '60s in regard to signals and lighting. I can't find the specific text for the SAE standards, but I don't think it matters. There is a very specific section in FMVSS No. 108 (S5.1.1.25) that reads "Each turn signal lamp on a motorcycle manufactured on and after January 1, 1973, shall have an effective projected luminous area of not less than 3\1/2\ square inches." I haven’t even gotten into the tail lights section really. In addition to the luminous/candle power and illuminated area requirements there are an endless number of reflective and durability requirements. Basically, it is mind bendingly complex to be DOT compliant (as required by default of our own state statutes/laws). Supposedly, even most aftermarket parts labeled "DOT Approved" are not even close. Having non OEM lighting is not by default illegal, but there is a good chance it is not compliant. That is as far as I want to go with this for now. My unemployed ass can only spare so much time. I hope this has excited you as much as it did me... __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


06-18-2009, 03:39 PM	#2
K2TheM Superbiker Joined: Apr 2006 From: Vantucky, WA I Ride: '84 VF 700F Interceptor	I think over the past month I've heard more people getting pulled over on citation of their lights being to small. Up until that point I've only ever heard of people getting pulled over for their lights being to close together. I remember reading someplace that a motorcycle needs to have it's turn signals 15 inches apart in the front and 8 inches apart in the rear. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


06-18-2009, 04:48 PM	#3
Ironhead Pit Crew Joined: Jan 2008 From: Salem, OR I Ride: My pony. Saddle's waiting. Come & Jump on it....	One track...........that is impressive! Honestly say that you did not cut/paste one thing in that post. Still. Impressive! It still equates to tail chasing statutes= __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


06-18-2009, 11:17 PM	#4
OneTrack Endorsed Joined: Apr 2008 From: Tualatin I Ride: the bench	Yeah, the info I've posted so far doesn't even scratch the surface. I've pretty much only identified where the "black box" the cop showed Todd comes from. I'm pretty good with research and I can't beleive how hard it was to find this seemingly simple stuff. I'm going to see what else I can nail down. Vehicle lighting...I must be bored. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


06-19-2009, 09:25 AM	#5
midvalleysuperbiker Streetfighter Joined: May 2008 From: South Salem Oregon I Ride: Aprilia Tuono, Ducati GT1000, Moto Guzzi Centauro, Bimota DB4, Yamaha FJR1300	Important research, thanks for your efforts. Given Cpl Timmy's creiteria I don't think the stock signals on my Ducati or Moto Guzzi are legal! The front signals on my Aprilia are aftermarket LED and lots brighter than the stock but if Cpl Timmy pulls me over I probably will get a ticket. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter

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06-19-2009, 11:48 AM	#6
rdailey Training Wheels Joined: Jun 2009 From: South Salem, Oregon I Ride: 06 CBR 1000RRrrrrrrr	Hey guys, This is a much better (well written and more informative) thread than the one I started the other day while I was still in an angry stupor from being stalked and tagged by Robocop Dezotell. I'm glad I stumbled across this site while I was searching for solutions to my problem. There's a lot of good information and humor that you guys offer and I hope to contribute on both levels in the very near future. Not sure why my posts come off as "whining" as some said, because I'm not like that in real life. Must be my poor writing skills...........Waaaaaaaaaaa. I'm a learning noob here. anyway, hope to meet and ride with you soon. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


06-19-2009, 12:32 PM	#7
Ironhead Pit Crew Joined: Jan 2008 From: Salem, OR I Ride: My pony. Saddle's waiting. Come & Jump on it....	No sweat RD! I didnt see your post as whiny in any way shape or form. Keep us informed on the outcome of this citation. Hopefully One-track with his incredible ability to research this subject will help you when court day comes. Dont let your previous post make you gun-shy! There are asshats in every forum. Hope to ride with you soon! PS. Most of the Asshats are in the Salem Group......Just a word of caution. If Alcorn wants to cook Bacon with you and the Crisco kid......dont go.......just say'in......... __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


07-03-2009, 10:03 PM	#9
JonXX Endorsed Joined: Apr 2009 From: near McMinnville I Ride: Hondas, Huskys and Harleys	3 1/2 square inches (fmvss 10 is not anywhere near the same as a 3 1/2 inch square. Cpl ditzell's "guide template" is wrong. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


07-03-2009, 10:03 PM	#10
JonXX Endorsed Joined: Apr 2009 From: near McMinnville I Ride: Hondas, Huskys and Harleys	Double post monster __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter Last edited by JonXX; 07-03-2009 at 10:08 PM..


07-03-2009, 11:40 PM	#11
Olequa Training Wheels Joined: Feb 2009 From: Salem I Ride: Suzuki GSX 650F	I looked and looked, could find nothing in the Oregon Revised Statutes about the proper placement of turn signals. It often happens, cities make little rules about things that cannot be supported by state law. Unless there is something in the Oregon Revised Statutes about how turn signals must be placed on a motorcycle, then getting a ticket for improper signal light placement is probably unconstitutional in view of Oregon State law. Moreover, I bet there is "no penalty" shown in the ORS for no signals at all. Until challenged, many city laws are incorrect. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


07-04-2009, 01:15 PM	#14
starkmojo Endorsed Joined: Aug 2008 From: PDX OR I Ride: 74 cb750 K4	when I redid the lights on mine it said something about them being visible from a minimum distance and colors (amber front, amber rear unless also break lights then red etc) and that the break light had to have a plate light... but i dont recall any size mattering But size ALWAYS matters. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


07-04-2009, 10:31 PM	#16
Olequa Training Wheels Joined: Feb 2009 From: Salem I Ride: Suzuki GSX 650F	I finally found the ORS about motorcycle turn signals. Very general, nothing specific, the statute adopts the Department of Transportation standards, which are also vague and general. The DOT relies upon the sae (society of automotive enginers). You can't read those publications, without buying them!! Oregon's motorcycle operators study book is vague. So, it boils down to vague Oregon laws about motorcycle turn signal lights. Those laws are unreasonably hidden from the Oregon public. Where does JQ Public go to get solid information about motorcycle turn signals? An Oregon government publication? So, the Salem police have some kind of chart about motorcycle lighting, a chart that is not available to JQ Public? Show me the chart in a free Oregon State publication! Show me! How can a motorcyclist abide by Oregon laws that are fuzzy and unclear? __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


07-05-2009, 01:35 AM	#18
makotosun Newbie Joined: Jun 2009 From: Longview, WA I Ride: Honda Magna, Honda Valkyrie, Yamaha DT400, CT70 - Really!	If the requirement is for 3.5 square inches of lens, then the diameter of the lens needs to be approximately 2.111" across. Assuming that is the required size. Area = 3.14 * Radius squared. Been awhile since I needed to do that kind of math, but I believe that is the formula? __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


07-06-2009, 10:58 AM	#21
Ironhead Pit Crew Joined: Jan 2008 From: Salem, OR I Ride: My pony. Saddle's waiting. Come & Jump on it....	Let me Muddy the waters up a little. Lets toss Oregon Law out. Focus on Federal only due to the fact that this is what is being enforced. Try and follow this mess. S571.108 Standard No. 108. Lamps reflective devices, and associated equipment. Sect S3 Application (a) Passenger cars, multipurpose passenger vehicles, trucks, buses, trailers and motorcycles. This section defines Scope, Purpose and defines terminology. I will skip to the definition of " Effective projected luminous lens area" Means that area of the projection on a plane perpendicular to the lamp axis of that portion of the light-emitting surface that directs light to the photometric test pattern, and does not include mounting hole bosses, reflex reflector area, beads or rims that may glow or produce small areas of increased intensity as a result of uncontolled light from small areas (1/2 deg. radius around the test point). Section S5.1.1.7 A motorcycle turn signal lamp need meet only one-half of the minimum photometric values specified in Table 1 and Table 3 of SAE J588 NOV84 Turn signal Lamps. Section S5.1.1.25 Each turn signal lamp on a motorcycle manufactured on and after Jan. 1, 1973, shall have an effective projected luminous area of not less that 3 1/2 square inches. Notice in section S5.1.1.25 that the word "lens" is not included in effective projected luminous area. Here is my question. By definition. Is the signal to physically measure 3 1/2 square inches? Or does the light have to "project" an area on the photometric test pattern that measure this? __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter Last edited by Ironhead; 07-06-2009 at 11:04 AM..


07-06-2009, 11:04 AM	#22
Baystr Streetfighter Joined: Sep 2008 From: Salem, OR I Ride: 636 trackbike, 08 CBR 1000RR, 07 CRF450R. had 00929RR, ZX9R	my head hurts....... __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


07-06-2009, 11:51 AM	#23
smoothytaggert Zone Head Joined: May 2006 From: lively Hagadone area I Ride: I ride to get lost and I never fail at that	anyone do rear halogen headlights just to spite? what they can't see they can't catch... __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


07-06-2009, 03:04 PM	#25
Ironhead Pit Crew Joined: Jan 2008 From: Salem, OR I Ride: My pony. Saddle's waiting. Come & Jump on it....	Kevin, That is the way I read it as well. Mind you I dont do drugs or math either if that tells you anything! But as usual. Federal acts require mulitple reference books. For example: S7.9.2 A motorcycle manufactured on or after September 1,2000, shall be equipped with- (a) A headlight system designed to conform to SAE Standard J584 Motorcycle headlamps April 1964 with the photometric specifications of Figure 32 and the upper beam aimability specifications of paragraph S7.9.3 So If I dig in a little more. Im sure I can find those specifications listed some where! My issue was one of reflective light vs physical size. Thank you for the input! __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


07-06-2009, 08:25 PM	#27
Olequa Training Wheels Joined: Feb 2009 From: Salem I Ride: Suzuki GSX 650F	There is light which looks like a star at night. Not real big. The source of the light is a little over One hundred thousand light years across in size and a billion or so light years away. So, the projected light from a motorcycle light, it's the distance from which it is measured that counts, and we don't know that distance. That distance is buried in the SAE materials that you have to buy. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


07-08-2009, 08:13 AM	#28
Busa Girl Pit Crew Joined: Mar 2008 From: Salem-Seattle-Portland-? I Ride: Busa!	I had insomnia last night - started reading the rules and regs - fell asleep. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter

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