| | #1 |
| Moderator ![]() | Tire wear.. I am cornfused.. I am posting this in track time because I know you guys understand the finer points of tire wear and suspension.. Here is my conundrum; I just got back from a 325 mile ride and noticed some strange (for me) tire wear. I have gotten used to using up a set of street tires in less than 3K. At 13449 miles, I put on my sixth set of skins; Bridgestone BT016's. I chose these because I hoped to get at least 3K out of them without sacrificing grip. The wear on the last 5 sets of tires (two sets of OE BT056's, two sets of PP's, and one set of Qualifiers) was pretty similar... the rears were toast, the fronts still had some left..not enough to justify another rear..but some skin left. I am seeing completely different wear characteristics with the 16's; the fronts are going away first. The rear seems to be wearing about the same as any other tire...maybe even faster..but the front is going away fast! I understand that these tires have two compounds on the front...the sides being softer. One other adjustment was made at the same time the tires were mounted; I didn't have the extra cash to really do the forks right...so I had 15mm of internal preload put in, and went to 10 wt fork oil. The bike seems to handle very well... a noticeable improvement from before. The question; why am I toasting the sides of the fronts all of a sudden? These tires have 1665 (non track) miles on them; Front; Sides are 1/32nds to the wearbars. Center is 2/32nds away. (started with 3/32nds at both points) ![]() On the rear, I've used 4 of 6/32nds in the center, and 3 of 5/32nds on the sides; ![]() Is it just the tire? Did my suspension changes cause this? Any ideas?? |
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| | #3 |
| Forum Cripple | What pressures are you running? Post more pictures - I want to see specifically the contour of the tire near the tread cuts (ie, if the rubber adjacent to the cut "lips up" or is "ground down"). |
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| | #5 |
| Moderator ![]() | ![]() Leading edge of front cuts definitely cupping up. cold psi this morning before I left; 35.5 front, 34.5 rear. |
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| | #6 |
| Pilot in Command | Hmm, I want to be a smart ass here, have you gained any weight of late? What did you have for breakfast before going on those rides LOL all in good fun. Still there may be a point to it. I say your just riding harder and don't know it. Do know that some tires are sensitive to pressure changes and temps. Give it a bit, Mr. Scooterrash will be all over this one. |
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| | #7 | |
| Moderator ![]() | ![]()
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| | #11 |
| Superbiker Joined: Apr 2007 From: Kennewick, Washington I Ride: '08 Ducati 848 street , '03 R6 track bike | ![]() ![]() |
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| | #12 |
| Superbiker Joined: Apr 2007 From: Kennewick, Washington I Ride: '08 Ducati 848 street , '03 R6 track bike | ![]() except barry is my hero as of late ![]() |
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| | #13 |
| Forum Cripple | Track pressures are very different from street pressures, and 002 pressures are also different from 016 pressures ![]() 34-35ish sounds right for the pressures. From your description of the lip on the tread, your rebound damping is set too fast. If you have little flathead screws on the top of your forks, try turning them clockwise one full turn (unless they click while turning, in which case turn them two clicks clockwise). However, this shouldn't cause extreme tire wear like what you're describing. If adjusting your rebound doesn't help them wear more slowly, and you didn't drastically change your riding, my best guess is just that the BT-016 front is softer than the Pilot Power front. |
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| | #14 |
| Retired Joined: Mar 2006 From: spokane, wa I Ride: 2006 R6 | just a quick thought, it looks like you are getting faster. the increased front wear is due to increased entry and mid corner speed. have you noticed any body position changes in your riding style since becoming a trackhead? |
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| | #15 |
| Moderator ![]() | ![]() Fred, I'm trying to get off the bike more, and focusing on less brake on entry, and smoother throttle on exit.. I don't think I'm riding faster..but I guess I just don't know. |
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| | #16 |
| Moderator ![]() | ![]() This pic shows the cupping a little better.. ![]() |
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| | #17 |
| MotoGP Champion Joined: Sep 2005 From: Bremerton I Ride: 03 Are See fiddy one, 05 DRZ400SM, 95 FZR1040, 69 Combat Commando Roadster, 73 Commando Interstate, 67 BSA B44, 71 BSA B50 | By "less brake at corner entry" do you mean more entry speed? I'm thinkin there's your answer. |
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| | #18 |
| Moderator ![]() | ![]() Yea... I'm certain I am carrying a bit more corner speed...but hell.. enough to radically change the front tire wear like this? I've still got the Qualifer (front) in my shop... it has 2300 miles on it, including one track day (about 120 miles) and it has more skin on the sides than this 16 does with 1665 street miles... |
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| | #19 |
| MotoGP Champion Joined: Sep 2005 From: Bremerton I Ride: 03 Are See fiddy one, 05 DRZ400SM, 95 FZR1040, 69 Combat Commando Roadster, 73 Commando Interstate, 67 BSA B44, 71 BSA B50 | One thing I've found is that it's difficult (for ma anyway) to differentiate between gaging speed and rate of deceleration. You may well be carrying more entry speed than you think. You may also be altering your line to the point that you are loading the tire more. Just things to think about.... |
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| | #20 | |
| Pit Crew Joined: Jan 2008 From: Seattle, wa | ![]()
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| | #21 | |
| Moderator ![]() | ![]() ![]()
You may be right..I just can't see where my style has changed enough to cause the front to go so fast. Again, I understand the sides are softer...but are they softer than the sides of the Qualifier?? Wish I could see some real data... | |
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| | #22 |
| Pit Crew Joined: Jul 2009 From: Corvallis, OR I Ride: 08 Hypervibrator | Rebound too soft can cause cupping...be careful with rebound though - too much rebound is NOT a good thing. Rebound too light will cause some boing-boing while riding along. I imagine compression damping too light would contribute (again, too much is not a good thing). Have you set up your spring preload correctly? Should have about 1" of rider sag front, about 1.25" sag in the rear. Have you checked your fork oil level? Fork oil weight, your weight? I currently run tire pressure 32 psi front & rear in dual compound Michelins on my Hyper. Spring preload is a bit much since I weigh 130 lb and the bike is set up for rider at 160 lb+. My 95 Duc 916 wore the sides of the front tire out first - this was back in 1997-8 when I was racing a lot. Had the dual compound Bridgestones. No cupping. Tire guys said the 916 has a lot of weight on the front wheel causing the wear. Maybe I just didn't use the gas enough to lighten the front wheel |
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| | #24 |
| Moderator ![]() | Oh sure... ** By the way, what we've been calling "cupping" on the front tire is really no more than a small lip coming off the leading edges of the tread cut, the same lip I get on the trailing edges of the cuts on the rear tire. Last edited by mjn; 07-15-2009 at 06:44 PM.. |
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| | #25 |
| MotoGP Contender Joined: Feb 2006 From: Dri-Shities, WA I Ride: GSX-R's | Your starting to ride a fat girl as if you are doin a skinny girl! Time for a 750 or liter for twisties & keep yur bus for your straight line excitement! |
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| | #26 |
| Streetfighter ![]() Joined: Mar 2006 From: Clarkston, WA I Ride: BMW, Harley, Kawa, Honda | Well, after talking to Jim at Mac's today, you are riding fast ![]() |
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| | #27 |
| MotoGP Contender Joined: Jul 2007 From: An unstated X,Y,Z coordinate I Ride: 09 Blk Daytona 675 (better than hoochie), BLK/Silver 06 Tiger, Red 04 R1, Yellow 99 Daytona 955i | What type of road are you on? I get a bit of the same and run pretty much on chip seal and have noticed some weird wear patterns similar to yours though not as bad. ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
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| | #28 |
| Slow Eric | Jim is a liar, he rides like a puss. |
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| | #29 |
| MotoGP Contender | this is most definitely true. But, Mark does indeed need to SLOW THE F*CK DOWN! |
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| | #30 | |
| GP Suspension ![]() Joined: Dec 2008 From: Oregon City Oregon | ![]()
Bring it to me and we can slap a sent of springs in there for you and dail your sag, compression and rebound for a reasonable price. | |
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| | #34 |
| Zone Head Joined: Feb 2008 From: Portland, Oregon I Ride: '07 GSXR-750 | I think you have 3 issues going on. #1 this is a new tire to you so its wear characteristics are going to be different than the last sets of tires you used. Perhaps the front tire is softer than the others. #2 your track experience has given you more confidence to carry more entry speed into a corner and you may be pushing the front harder as you scrub off that speed when approcahing the apex, before you get on the throttle. Try getting onto maintainence throttle as you tip into the corner to put more weight on the rear. #3 your suspension changes may have affected the bikes handling and could be causing abnormal tire wear. I would definitely look into having a suspension shop (GP suspension being very highly recommended) check your set-up and get it dialed in for you, your riding style, weight, bike and tires. |
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| | #35 | ||
| Moderator ![]() | ![]()
I added more internal preload because I wanted more adjustment.. I'm exactly where I was before in terms of preload, but I've still got plenty of thread left to crank down.. I made the changes because I was using all the fork travel previously. The thought of being without travel midcorner did not do much for my confidence level.. I know I need to have it done right ... I need the 1.0 or better springs and better valving.. but the changes I did make have made the bike much more stable.. it may not have been the correct way to do it, but it is better. I don't know if all the old shit was flushed out... I told 'em to.. I just brought the forks into my local shop.. the job was initiated by leaking fork seals. Oh, and I am definitely 200+.... like 210. Hey there speedy... I remember you being in front of me for quite awhile Sunday morning... I wasn't riding any faster than you were.. ![]() ![]()
2.) I know I'm getting more and more used to my bike.. I also know that my one trackday (and GOD I want to get back!) helped me a ton. Jim and Steven gave me a ton of pointers. With that said... I tell myself I'm not gonna push it as hard when I go out.. and honestly, the last three rides I've had (the only three on these skins) I have been relaxed.. yea, I was movin'.. but I wasn't working at it nearly as hard as before (prior to the fork work/tire change) The mid corner warbles are gone.. and I'm working on not using my brakes as much, so yea.. the entry speeds are probably up a bit. I'm using maint throttle pre-apex now.. off throttle-tip in-maint throttle to just before the apex-smooth accel (working hard on that)-repeat. 3.) You are correct. I need to have the suspension done right..at least the front. I got a bid from GP prior to doing this and I just didn't have the dough.. Again, thanks for the responses. | ||
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| | #36 | |
| GP Suspension ![]() Joined: Dec 2008 From: Oregon City Oregon | Forks ![]()
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| | #37 |
| ghetto-fabulous Joined: Jun 2006 From: MetheadsStealYourStuff, OR I Ride: Sticky Rubbers | Looks to me like you are riding the hell out of that tire on a fairly abrasive surface with a heavy bike and a less than light rider ![]() |
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| | #38 |
| MotoGP Contender Joined: Feb 2006 From: Dri-Shities, WA I Ride: GSX-R's | ![]() ![]() ![]() |
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| | #39 |
| Superbiker Joined: Jul 2006 From: Thurston County, WA. I Ride: GSXR1000 | I'm with LateApex, slowing down just a tad through the corners would probably resolve the problem all together. And may very well keep your body parts functioning properly over a longer period of time! |
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| | #40 |
| Pit Crew Joined: Jul 2009 From: Corvallis, OR I Ride: 08 Hypervibrator | You shouldn't have to slow down (especially if you're on the track) to get your tires and/or suspension to behave. There are very few people in the world that can push these modern bikes beyond their limits, if set up correctly. Get your suspension set up right - both front and rear - and you won't regret it. You wouldn't believe how many track crashes I have seen that were caused by suspension problems! |
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