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Old 07-14-2009, 10:21 PM   #1
mjn
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I Ride: In search of the next 35mph corner......
Tire wear.. I am cornfused..
I am posting this in track time because I know you guys understand the finer points of tire wear and suspension..

Here is my conundrum;

I just got back from a 325 mile ride and noticed some strange (for me) tire wear.

I have gotten used to using up a set of street tires in less than 3K. At 13449 miles, I put on my sixth set of skins; Bridgestone BT016's. I chose these because I hoped to get at least 3K out of them without sacrificing grip.

The wear on the last 5 sets of tires (two sets of OE BT056's, two sets of PP's, and one set of Qualifiers) was pretty similar... the rears were toast, the fronts still had some left..not enough to justify another rear..but some skin left.

I am seeing completely different wear characteristics with the 16's; the fronts are going away first. The rear seems to be wearing about the same as any other tire...maybe even faster..but the front is going away fast!

I understand that these tires have two compounds on the front...the sides being softer.

One other adjustment was made at the same time the tires were mounted; I didn't have the extra cash to really do the forks right...so I had 15mm of internal preload put in, and went to 10 wt fork oil. The bike seems to handle very well... a noticeable improvement from before.

The question; why am I toasting the sides of the fronts all of a sudden?

These tires have 1665 (non track) miles on them;

Front; Sides are 1/32nds to the wearbars. Center is 2/32nds away. (started with 3/32nds at both points)


On the rear, I've used 4 of 6/32nds in the center, and 3 of 5/32nds on the sides;

Is it just the tire? Did my suspension changes cause this? Any ideas??
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Old 07-14-2009, 10:27 PM   #2
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you're not going in a straight line enough.
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Old 07-14-2009, 10:28 PM   #3
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What pressures are you running? Post more pictures - I want to see specifically the contour of the tire near the tread cuts (ie, if the rubber adjacent to the cut "lips up" or is "ground down").
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Old 07-14-2009, 10:28 PM   #4
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I Ride: In search of the next 35mph corner......
“ Quote:
Originally Posted by Plummy View Post
you're not going in a straight line enough.
Thank you my dear...
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Old 07-14-2009, 10:30 PM   #5
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I Ride: In search of the next 35mph corner......
“ Quote:
Originally Posted by tophyr View Post
What pressures are you running? Post more pictures - I want to see specifically the contour of the tire near the tread cuts (ie, if the rubber adjacent to the cut "lips up" or is "ground down").

Leading edge of front cuts definitely cupping up.

cold psi this morning before I left; 35.5 front, 34.5 rear.
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Old 07-14-2009, 10:40 PM   #6
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Hmm, I want to be a smart ass here, have you gained any weight of late? What did you have for breakfast before going on those rides LOL all in good fun. Still there may be a point to it. I say your just riding harder and don't know it. Do know that some tires are sensitive to pressure changes and temps. Give it a bit, Mr. Scooterrash will be all over this one.
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Old 07-14-2009, 10:43 PM   #7
mjn
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I Ride: In search of the next 35mph corner......
“ Quote:
Originally Posted by RVFR View Post
Hmm, I want to be a smart ass here, have you gained any weight of late? What did you have for breakfast before going on those rides LOL all in good fun. Still there may be a point to it. I say your just riding harder and don't know it. Do know that some tires are sensitive to pressure changes and temps. Give it a bit, Mr. Scooterrash will be all over this one.
LOL! Actually, I've lost 20 lbs... and yea, I'll be interested to see what Steven has to say..
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Old 07-14-2009, 10:55 PM   #8
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I Ride: only on the center of my tire.
I don't ride my bike nearly as hard as you do...

... but my pressures are 32 PSI front and 32.5 PSI rear.
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Old 07-14-2009, 11:08 PM   #9
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I Ride: 2003 Honda CBR 600rr
PM Essvar..
he is the BStone rep and my personal hero.....
Knows these tires in and out....
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Old 07-14-2009, 11:09 PM   #10
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I Ride: Street: Bike #1 Track: Bike #2
Cause you ride like an animal little dude
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Old 07-14-2009, 11:11 PM   #11
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I Ride: '08 Ducati 848 street , '03 R6 track bike
“ Quote:
Originally Posted by mjn View Post
Leading edge of front cuts definitely cupping up.

cold psi this morning before I left; 35.5 front, 34.5 rear.
Seems a bit high to me if your pushing it through the twisties. But I'm no expert. I run my 002's on my duc much lower at the track. I want to say they were 29 rear and 31 front? not 100% on that though. That was last week.
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Old 07-14-2009, 11:12 PM   #12
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I Ride: '08 Ducati 848 street , '03 R6 track bike
“ Quote:
Originally Posted by magnolia View Post
PM Essvar..
he is the BStone rep and my personal hero.....
Knows these tires in and out....
except barry is my hero as of late
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Old 07-15-2009, 12:10 AM   #13
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Track pressures are very different from street pressures, and 002 pressures are also different from 016 pressures

34-35ish sounds right for the pressures. From your description of the lip on the tread, your rebound damping is set too fast. If you have little flathead screws on the top of your forks, try turning them clockwise one full turn (unless they click while turning, in which case turn them two clicks clockwise). However, this shouldn't cause extreme tire wear like what you're describing.

If adjusting your rebound doesn't help them wear more slowly, and you didn't drastically change your riding, my best guess is just that the BT-016 front is softer than the Pilot Power front.
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Old 07-15-2009, 06:03 AM   #14
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just a quick thought, it looks like you are getting faster. the increased front wear is due to increased entry and mid corner speed. have you noticed any body position changes in your riding style since becoming a trackhead?
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Old 07-15-2009, 08:12 AM   #15
mjn
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I Ride: In search of the next 35mph corner......
“ Quote:
Originally Posted by fastfoodfred View Post
just a quick thought, it looks like you are getting faster. the increased front wear is due to increased entry and mid corner speed. have you noticed any body position changes in your riding style since becoming a trackhead?

Fred, I'm trying to get off the bike more, and focusing on less brake on entry, and smoother throttle on exit.. I don't think I'm riding faster..but I guess I just don't know.
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Old 07-15-2009, 08:17 AM   #16
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I Ride: In search of the next 35mph corner......
“ Quote:
Originally Posted by tophyr View Post
What pressures are you running? Post more pictures - I want to see specifically the contour of the tire near the tread cuts (ie, if the rubber adjacent to the cut "lips up" or is "ground down").

This pic shows the cupping a little better..

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Old 07-15-2009, 08:49 AM   #17
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I Ride: 03 Are See fiddy one, 05 DRZ400SM, 95 FZR1040, 69 Combat Commando Roadster, 73 Commando Interstate, 67 BSA B44, 71 BSA B50
By "less brake at corner entry" do you mean more entry speed?
I'm thinkin there's your answer.
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Old 07-15-2009, 09:21 AM   #18
mjn
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I Ride: In search of the next 35mph corner......
“ Quote:
Originally Posted by dragracer1951 View Post
By "less brake at corner entry" do you mean more entry speed?
I'm thinkin there's your answer.

Yea... I'm certain I am carrying a bit more corner speed...but hell.. enough to radically change the front tire wear like this?

I've still got the Qualifer (front) in my shop... it has 2300 miles on it, including one track day (about 120 miles) and it has more skin on the sides than this 16 does with 1665 street miles...
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Old 07-15-2009, 09:37 AM   #19
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I Ride: 03 Are See fiddy one, 05 DRZ400SM, 95 FZR1040, 69 Combat Commando Roadster, 73 Commando Interstate, 67 BSA B44, 71 BSA B50
One thing I've found is that it's difficult (for ma anyway) to differentiate between gaging speed and rate of deceleration. You may well be carrying more entry speed than you think.
You may also be altering your line to the point that you are loading the tire more.
Just things to think about....
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Old 07-15-2009, 09:42 AM   #20
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“ Quote:
Originally Posted by mjn View Post
One other adjustment was made at the same time the tires were mounted; I didn't have the extra cash to really do the forks right...so I had 15mm of internal preload put in, and went to 10 wt fork oil. The bike seems to handle very well... a noticeable improvement from before.
The tire wear looks like a rebound issue to me. Incorrect pressures can also cause wear like this, but it sounds like yours are correct or at least close enough. I think the different weight fork oil is the culprit.
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Old 07-15-2009, 09:51 AM   #21
mjn
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I Ride: In search of the next 35mph corner......
“ Quote:
Originally Posted by magnolia View Post
PM Essvar..
he is the BStone rep and my personal hero.....
Knows these tires in and out....
Thanks! Done.

“ Quote:
Originally Posted by dragracer1951 View Post
One thing I've found is that it's difficult (for ma anyway) to differentiate between gaging speed and rate of deceleration. You may well be carrying more entry speed than you think.
You may also be altering your line to the point that you are loading the tire more.
Just things to think about....

You may be right..I just can't see where my style has changed enough to cause the front to go so fast.
Again, I understand the sides are softer...but are they softer than the sides of the Qualifier??
Wish I could see some real data...
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Old 07-15-2009, 10:04 AM   #22
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Rebound too soft can cause cupping...be careful with rebound though - too much rebound is NOT a good thing. Rebound too light will cause some boing-boing while riding along. I imagine compression damping too light would contribute (again, too much is not a good thing). Have you set up your spring preload correctly? Should have about 1" of rider sag front, about 1.25" sag in the rear. Have you checked your fork oil level? Fork oil weight, your weight? I currently run tire pressure 32 psi front & rear in dual compound Michelins on my Hyper. Spring preload is a bit much since I weigh 130 lb and the bike is set up for rider at 160 lb+.

My 95 Duc 916 wore the sides of the front tire out first - this was back in 1997-8 when I was racing a lot. Had the dual compound Bridgestones. No cupping. Tire guys said the 916 has a lot of weight on the front wheel causing the wear. Maybe I just didn't use the gas enough to lighten the front wheel
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Old 07-15-2009, 05:42 PM   #23
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I bet you are just one of those fast guys now.
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Old 07-15-2009, 06:40 PM   #24
mjn
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I Ride: In search of the next 35mph corner......
“ Quote:
Originally Posted by fastfoodfred View Post
I bet you are just one of those fast guys now.
Oh sure... I'm just as slow as I've always been. I'm certain it isn't my stellar riding ability that made such a dramatic switch in tire wear.. I'm gonna try dropping the pressure a bit on the next ride.. we'll see if that changes anything..

** By the way, what we've been calling "cupping" on the front tire is really no more than a small lip coming off the leading edges of the tread cut, the same lip I get on the trailing edges of the cuts on the rear tire.
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Last edited by mjn; 07-15-2009 at 06:44 PM..
 
Old 07-15-2009, 07:09 PM   #25
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From: Dri-Shities, WA

I Ride: GSX-R's
Your starting to ride a fat girl as if you are doin a skinny girl! Time for a 750 or liter for twisties & keep yur bus for your straight line excitement!
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Old 07-15-2009, 08:18 PM   #26
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I Ride: BMW, Harley, Kawa, Honda
“ Quote:
Originally Posted by mjn View Post
.. I don't think I'm riding faster..but I guess I just don't know.
Well, after talking to Jim at Mac's today, you are riding fast
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Old 07-15-2009, 08:39 PM   #27
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From: An unstated X,Y,Z coordinate

I Ride: 09 Blk Daytona 675 (better than hoochie), BLK/Silver 06 Tiger, Red 04 R1, Yellow 99 Daytona 955i
What type of road are you on? I get a bit of the same and run pretty much on chip seal and have noticed some weird wear patterns similar to yours though not as bad.

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Old 07-15-2009, 08:41 PM   #28
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I Ride: Street: Bike #1 Track: Bike #2
“ Quote:
Originally Posted by Bmwridr05 View Post
Well, after talking to Jim at Mac's today, you are riding fast
Jim is a liar, he rides like a puss.
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Old 07-15-2009, 08:56 PM   #29
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“ Quote:
Originally Posted by eric View Post
Jim is a liar, he rides like a puss.
this is most definitely true.

But, Mark does indeed need to SLOW THE F*CK DOWN!
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Old 07-15-2009, 09:01 PM   #30
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“ Quote:
Originally Posted by mjn View Post
I am posting this in track time because I know you guys understand the finer points of tire wear and suspension..

Here is my conundrum;

I just got back from a 325 mile ride and noticed some strange (for me) tire wear.

I have gotten used to using up a set of street tires in less than 3K. At 13449 miles, I put on my sixth set of skins; Bridgestone BT016's. I chose these because I hoped to get at least 3K out of them without sacrificing grip.

The wear on the last 5 sets of tires (two sets of OE BT056's, two sets of PP's, and one set of Qualifiers) was pretty similar... the rears were toast, the fronts still had some left..not enough to justify another rear..but some skin left.

I am seeing completely different wear characteristics with the 16's; the fronts are going away first. The rear seems to be wearing about the same as any other tire...maybe even faster..but the front is going away fast!

I understand that these tires have two compounds on the front...the sides being softer.

One other adjustment was made at the same time the tires were mounted; I didn't have the extra cash to really do the forks right...so I had 15mm of internal preload put in, and went to 10 wt fork oil. The bike seems to handle very well... a noticeable improvement from before.

The question; why am I toasting the sides of the fronts all of a sudden?

These tires have 1665 (non track) miles on them;

Front; Sides are 1/32nds to the wearbars. Center is 2/32nds away. (started with 3/32nds at both points)


On the rear, I've used 4 of 6/32nds in the center, and 3 of 5/32nds on the sides;

Is it just the tire? Did my suspension changes cause this? Any ideas??
Well when I read your post a couple things stick out. One you said you put 15mm of preload in why? You want your front sag to be around 40mm and the rear around 32mm with 6-10mm free sag. If you are riding a busa it comes comes stock with .824 springs very light especially if you are around 200lb. And we know that the busa is hard on rear tires to begin with. 10wt oil will increase your dampening a lot compaired to the fish oil that the factory puts in there, which can cause tire wear. So if those are the two things you changed and are now having a problem. I would say to take a look at what you did a little closer. When you changed the oil did you take the forks completely apart and get all the crap out of the forks and all of the old oil out and off the stock parts?

Bring it to me and we can slap a sent of springs in there for you and dail your sag, compression and rebound for a reasonable price.
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Old 07-15-2009, 09:28 PM   #31
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^^^ Yeah, what he said....and slow the F down!
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Old 07-15-2009, 09:32 PM   #32
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I Ride: CBR
i have heard that the 016 fronts wear faster.....just a rumor though...i really have no clue

thought i would just throw in some blabber
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Old 07-15-2009, 09:45 PM   #33
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I Ride: Wheelies
need to do more wheelies. problem solved.

T
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Old 07-15-2009, 10:14 PM   #34
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I Ride: '07 GSXR-750
I think you have 3 issues going on.

#1 this is a new tire to you so its wear characteristics are going to be different than the last sets of tires you used. Perhaps the front tire is softer than the others.

#2 your track experience has given you more confidence to carry more entry speed into a corner and you may be pushing the front harder as you scrub off that speed when approcahing the apex, before you get on the throttle.

Try getting onto maintainence throttle as you tip into the corner to put more weight on the rear.

#3 your suspension changes may have affected the bikes handling and could be causing abnormal tire wear. I would definitely look into having a suspension shop (GP suspension being very highly recommended) check your set-up and get it dialed in for you, your riding style, weight, bike and tires.
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Old 07-15-2009, 10:37 PM   #35
mjn
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I Ride: In search of the next 35mph corner......
“ Quote:
Originally Posted by GP SUSPENSION View Post
Well when I read your post a couple things stick out. One you said you put 15mm of preload in why? You want your front sag to be around 40mm and the rear around 32mm with 6-10mm free sag. If you are riding a busa it comes comes stock with .824 springs very light especially if you are around 200lb. And we know that the busa is hard on rear tires to begin with. 10wt oil will increase your dampening a lot compaired to the fish oil that the factory puts in there, which can cause tire wear. So if those are the two things you changed and are now having a problem. I would say to take a look at what you did a little closer. When you changed the oil did you take the forks completely apart and get all the crap out of the forks and all of the old oil out and off the stock parts?

Bring it to me and we can slap a sent of springs in there for you and dail your sag, compression and rebound for a reasonable price.
First of all...thanks for the comments..
I added more internal preload because I wanted more adjustment.. I'm exactly where I was before in terms of preload, but I've still got plenty of thread left to crank down..
I made the changes because I was using all the fork travel previously. The thought of being without travel midcorner did not do much for my confidence level.. I know I need to have it done right ... I need the 1.0 or better springs and better valving.. but the changes I did make have made the bike much more stable.. it may not have been the correct way to do it, but it is better.
I don't know if all the old shit was flushed out... I told 'em to.. I just brought the forks into my local shop.. the job was initiated by leaking fork seals.

Oh, and I am definitely 200+.... like 210.

“ Quote:
Originally Posted by late apex View Post
^^^ Yeah, what he said....and slow the F down!
Hey there speedy... I remember you being in front of me for quite awhile Sunday morning... I wasn't riding any faster than you were..

“ Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicegy525 View Post
I think you have 3 issues going on.

#1 this is a new tire to you so its wear characteristics are going to be different than the last sets of tires you used. Perhaps the front tire is softer than the others.

#2 your track experience has given you more confidence to carry more entry speed into a corner and you may be pushing the front harder as you scrub off that speed when approcahing the apex, before you get on the throttle.

Try getting onto maintainence throttle as you tip into the corner to put more weight on the rear.

#3 your suspension changes may have affected the bikes handling and could be causing abnormal tire wear. I would definitely look into having a suspension shop (GP suspension being very highly recommended) check your set-up and get it dialed in for you, your riding style, weight, bike and tires.
1.) I agree. My gut says the sides of the 16 are softer than any tire I've had on there previously.. I've got no data, howver, to support this theory....

2.) I know I'm getting more and more used to my bike.. I also know that my one trackday (and GOD I want to get back!) helped me a ton. Jim and Steven gave me a ton of pointers. With that said... I tell myself I'm not gonna push it as hard when I go out.. and honestly, the last three rides I've had (the only three on these skins) I have been relaxed.. yea, I was movin'.. but I wasn't working at it nearly as hard as before (prior to the fork work/tire change) The mid corner warbles are gone.. and I'm working on not using my brakes as much, so yea.. the entry speeds are probably up a bit.
I'm using maint throttle pre-apex now.. off throttle-tip in-maint throttle to just before the apex-smooth accel (working hard on that)-repeat.
3.) You are correct. I need to have the suspension done right..at least the front. I got a bid from GP prior to doing this and I just didn't have the dough..

Again, thanks for the responses.
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Old 07-15-2009, 10:58 PM   #36
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Forks
“ Quote:
Originally Posted by mjn View Post
First of all...thanks for the comments..
I added more internal preload because I wanted more adjustment.. I'm exactly where I was before in terms of preload, but I've still got plenty of thread left to crank down..
I made the changes because I was using all the fork travel previously. The thought of being without travel midcorner did not do much for my confidence level.. I know I need to have it done right ... I need the 1.0 or better springs and better valving.. but the changes I did make have made the bike much more stable.. it may not have been the correct way to do it, but it is better.
I don't know if all the old shit was flushed out... I told 'em to.. I just brought the forks into my local shop.. the job was initiated by leaking fork seals.

Oh, and I am definitely 200+.... like 210.



Hey there speedy... I remember you being in front of me for quite awhile Sunday morning... I wasn't riding any faster than you were..



1.) I agree. My gut says the sides of the 16 are softer than any tire I've had on there previously.. I've got no data, howver, to support this theory....

2.) I know I'm getting more and more used to my bike.. I also know that my one trackday (and GOD I want to get back!) helped me a ton. Jim and Steven gave me a ton of pointers. With that said... I tell myself I'm not gonna push it as hard when I go out.. and honestly, the last three rides I've had (the only three on these skins) I have been relaxed.. yea, I was movin'.. but I wasn't working at it nearly as hard as before (prior to the fork work/tire change) The mid corner warbles are gone.. and I'm working on not using my brakes as much, so yea.. the entry speeds are probably up a bit.
I'm using maint throttle pre-apex now.. off throttle-tip in-maint throttle to just before the apex-smooth accel (working hard on that)-repeat.
3.) You are correct. I need to have the suspension done right..at least the front. I got a bid from GP prior to doing this and I just didn't have the dough..

Again, thanks for the responses.
Your first statement makes no sense to me. You add preload to try an obtain the desired sag measurement around 40mm. If you cannot obtain that measurement then you need to either go to a stiffer or lighter spring depending upon your weight and the bike. Second if you are bottoming out your forks all the time then most likely you have an oil level problem. We very rarely put 1.0 springs in any bike even most proffessional club racers do not use 1.0 it is a stiff ass spring. I weight 225 with gear and took out my .95 springs and put .925 springs in because they where beating me up riding around town. If they did not replace the fork seals and dust wipers they did a dump an run. Most guys that are into busu's swap out front ends with gsxr 750's so they have inverted forks and radial brakes. Bring them to me I can make them work for less then you can think. I have a feeling your oil level is to low. By the looks of your tire your forks are not doing what they are supposed to do.
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Old 07-15-2009, 11:00 PM   #37
ghetto-fabulous
 
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Joined: Jun 2006
From: MetheadsStealYourStuff, OR

I Ride: Sticky Rubbers
Looks to me like you are riding the hell out of that tire on a fairly abrasive surface with a heavy bike and a less than light rider
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Old 07-16-2009, 06:07 AM   #38
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Joined: Feb 2006
From: Dri-Shities, WA

I Ride: GSX-R's
“ Quote:
Originally Posted by Essvar View Post
Looks to me like you are riding the hell out of that tire on a fairly abrasive surface with a heavy bike and a less than light rider


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Old 07-16-2009, 07:26 AM   #39
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Joined: Jul 2006
From: Thurston County, WA.

I Ride: GSXR1000
I'm with LateApex, slowing down just a tad through the corners would probably resolve the problem all together. And may very well keep your body parts functioning properly over a longer period of time!
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Old 07-16-2009, 08:31 AM   #40
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Joined: Jul 2009
From: Corvallis, OR

I Ride: 08 Hypervibrator
You shouldn't have to slow down (especially if you're on the track) to get your tires and/or suspension to behave. There are very few people in the world that can push these modern bikes beyond their limits, if set up correctly.

Get your suspension set up right - both front and rear - and you won't regret it. You wouldn't believe how many track crashes I have seen that were caused by suspension problems!
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