PNW Riders

Soil · 09-10-2009, 09:26 PM

Can we talk?

after MANY discussions there are a few key turns that need to be pointed out in this 'safer' and 'flow-ier' CW or CCW discussion...

first, let's establish some definitions... since PSSR is the only map I have seen with 16 turns, so let's use the majority rules thing on that subject - ORP has 15 turns according to their website layout, please refer to that for the following discussion

as always safety first:

T12... CW - if you came in too hot and couldn't stop and decided to run off, what would happen? THAT jersey barrier would stop you from falling off the 20 plus foot drop off... unless you ejected over the jersey barrier - that would hurt.

T3... CW - Barn (worst case), ouch.

T7... CW - imagine coming down that hill from T6, before you tip into T7, and your brakes fail... where will you run off? another ouch.

now - to keep things simple, gonna use the same turn numbers for the same turns... but switch the directions.

So - other direction, what's the 'unsafe' turns?

none. Those mentioned above will not produce those same increased risks... Think through all the turns - ALL of them are 'safer' from a "you have no brakes" kind of run off - or a typical low side situation...

Next - flow...

the coolest part of the track is the half pipe. So - going CW it is a 'flat line' from T9 to T10 while the 'right line' thru CCW is to late apex both those turns. THAT causes more 'swooping', more flowing than you can imagine if you haven't done it.

ADD to that - the 'entrance/exit' that T8 (CW) is... how many folks 'enjoy' entering the pipe CW? now, flip it... imagine the natural and correct drive you would have leaving UP that hill instead of driving down it and trying to mid apex T9.

SO - why then does everyone say CCW doesn't flow? CCW isn't as safe????

T11 and T13.

Taking T11 and 13 (15 turn track) CW is GREAT! reverse them and they are pretty terrifying! T3 is a bit of a blind left with a little downhill... well, T11 and 13 CCW are HORRIFYINGLY blind, downhill and have some serious camber challenges.

T8 (CCW) Leaving the pipe, driving up that hill and flipping it back down into that trough is 'itchy'... BUT - a LOT less 'itchy' than driving down into the pipe...

SO - T11 and 13 alone do increase the chance of a get off if you don't ride them properly... BUT the run off is still safe and since no matter what, folks are going to go down both ways... learning to ride those right aint any tuffer than learning T12 CW!

OH - look at T12 going CCW - A LOT safer and more fun!

ONE more 'safer' thing - track entrance and exit - think about it... NUFF said there.

Soooo... I'm a very open minded dude with a tad bit of 'eager to learn' in me - so please, anyone that can explain why they think CW is better or safer than CCW, enlighten me?

and I am NOT afraid of saying - "I was wrong" !!!! been wrong a LOT, pretty used to it, ask anybody!

dwschultzy · 09-10-2009, 09:48 PM

i've only done ccw....

are the corners still off camber if you go cw?

trayson · 09-11-2009, 12:17 AM

LOL, guess what Clay, remember that funny map I had that had what you're calling T12 labled at T13? Guess where PSSR got it? Yep, right off ORP's website. Admittedly, it looks like a "car" map because the driving line if that of what a car would take. But interesting nonetheless.

But since I'm nice, I made you a nice pretty map with the turns labled as you are describing them above. (i.e. I added numbers in red to the ORP map)

Deerhunter · 09-11-2009, 04:49 AM

Good luck with this one, Clay

. Personally, I think it's plenty safe for bikes in either direction (except for that wall below T12).

Soil · 09-11-2009, 07:19 AM

Originally Posted by Deerhunter

Good luck with this one, Clay

. Personally, I think it's plenty safe for bikes in either direction (except for that wall below T12).

DEERHUNTER hath spoken - can close the thread now!

(because that 'wall below T12 is only a problem in the CW direction... soooo.... CCW=safer)

also - the 'off camber' or on camber doesn't really change, what changes is WHEN you see/feel it - like entrance -vs- exit on/off camber.

ducatichick · 09-11-2009, 08:21 AM

ORP (CCW and CW) is probably the safest track I've ever run, except for Jennings GP in Florida which doesn't allow cars

.

Paytheon · 09-11-2009, 09:29 AM

I've only done ORP CW and found it to be an incredible track. My personal opinion is it's an easier track than THill, but there are some who disagree with my assessment. Eitherway, ORP is the track I will definately be at the most.

cobra525 · 09-11-2009, 09:55 AM

CCW. That is all, carry on

theJrod · 09-11-2009, 10:04 AM

I've only run hard going CW, but I took my motard around for a lap going CCW.

But frankly, I don't see how it's more or less "Safe" in either direction. There's more run-off that we're used to on almost all of the corners. T15 is a problem with the k-wall no matter which way you run. I really enjoyed CW, and personally I don't even have a desire to run it the other way. CW flowed pretty well.

T12... CW - if you came in too hot and couldn't stop and decided to run off, what would happen? THAT jersey barrier would stop you from falling off the 20 plus foot drop off... unless you ejected over the jersey barrier - that would hurt.

I did just that, backing it in on the motard, got a little crazy, and had to go off. I went straight into the dirt about 40 yards. No issues. Not sure what the fuss is about. Tons of run-off.

T3... CW - Barn (worst case), ouch.

I don't see any problem with this. You're not going to hit the barn if you run off.

T7... CW - imagine coming down that hill from T6, before you tip into T7, and your brakes fail... where will you run off? another ouch.

Again, not seeing the issue. If your brakes fail ANYWHERE, you're kinda fucked. No? Besides, I barely brake at all for T8.

ONE more 'safer' thing - track entrance and exit - think about it... NUFF said there.

I actually think CW is safer in this regard. CW, you can get a hand up all the way back at T13 and stay far left all the way up the hill through T14, and then exit. Those who are NOT coming off the track will be keeping a wide-right line to apex T15 (a corner I still have issues with).
Conversely, CCW riders are driving hard out of T2 - the race line would be far right-side of the track in order to apex T1 - exactly where exiting riders would be with their hands up. In other words, exiting riders would be perfectly in the way of non-exiting riders setting up for T1.

Paytheon · 09-11-2009, 10:11 AM

Originally Posted by cobra525

CCW. That is all, carry on

Roger doger.

tarik · 09-11-2009, 10:55 AM

Haven't run CCW, so keep that in mind, but based on the track layout here's my opinion.

I don't think it's safety issues that people complain about going CCW. It's just more technical that way. CW you have turns 3-4 and 8 and 12 that stand out. CCW you have 15, 13, 12, 11, 5 and 2 that are all become relatively more technical. Plus the straights tend to end in tighter corners going CCW than CW. That's part of what hurts the flow. Not as fun to have to stand the bike on the front wheel for a hairpin after every straight. At least it's nice to have the option to run both ways. Better riders will probably stand out more going CCW.

Deerhunter · 09-11-2009, 11:03 AM

Originally Posted by theJrod

I actually think CW is safer in this regard. CW, you can get a hand up all the way back at T13 and stay far left all the way up the hill through T14, and then exit. Those who are NOT coming off the track will be keeping a wide-right line to apex T15 (a corner I still have issues with).
Conversely, CCW riders are driving hard out of T2 - the race line would be far right-side of the track in order to apex T1 - exactly where exiting riders would be with their hands up. In other words, exiting riders would be perfectly in the way of non-exiting riders setting up for T1.

Coming up out of T13 I like the entire left side of the track for the "uphill don't high side power application corner exit" (could that be written more poorly?) as well as for a late apex T14 (cone was in the wrong place

?) followed by a late apex T15. I had more room with the launch down the straight CCW with riders exiting the track because I wasn't needing to immediately set up for another corner. One idea is to remind the riders, at least in the A group, that it's called the "hot pit" for a reason. Keep the speed up until absolutely necessary to enter the pits and then keep it moving just a bit until it's time to enter the paddock area. Don't get me wrong, my hand was unreasonably up through T13 but I wasn't letting off until past T14.

Soil · 09-11-2009, 11:43 AM

on / off track: CW - folks are BARRELING down the straight and get within inches of the cones on the left entering T1. PSSR extended the cones all the way to the end of the entrance curbing, for safety's sake. Some one jumped out of the cones about mid hill and almost hit me Monday (that sucked). The exit... folks are putting their hands up coming out of T12 (a couple going INTO it!) to exit the track... As Deerhunter said... best thing to do is stay on it thru 13, and not apex 14.

BUT - the other way -CCW... Leaving T2(CCW) would be the time to toss up a hand and stay right. PLENTY of room for faster riders to see you exiting, Plenty of room over the crest of the hill for a line of cones.... and entering the CCW direction - VERY easy to stay right and avoid any T15 traffic, then blend in at entrance to T13...

Sorry guys - I just don't buy the 'safety' argument.

I TOTALLY agree with tarik about it being a 'technical' thing. T11 and T13 are REALLY scary going CCW...

straights into tight turns: like T12 going CW... T2 CCW becomes something like that, except you have much less of a 'down hill' drive/brake situation and you can see the entire turn from the entrance. T11 and T13, as stated, are the ugly ones... T15 CCW is actually about the same both directions from a 'blind' standpoint. T12 CCW is SOO much better though. The other 'off a straight' situation would be T5 - again, CCW is less blind but does have some downhill braking if you are pushing - but it is really wide right there (feels it anyway)...

So - still not convinced CW is safer or more 'flowing' - Don't get me wrong PLEASE... BOTH are AWESOME!

think it may be time for a walk around and some pictures! sounds like another trip to grass valley!!!! who's in?

nuK · 09-11-2009, 11:45 AM

I've ridden CW thus far, therefore, I'll refrain from speaking further until after I return from the Palatov double header going CCW later this month.

Clay, thanks so much for the critique! It's ALL I've been thinking about since I left.

OOk · 09-11-2009, 12:08 PM

Agree with clay pretty much 100%. When people claim there are "issues" with CCW I think they're full of shit. It's a great, safe track both ways. CCW has become an unfortunate fuzzy memory in my mind now that I've done CW 3 days and CCW only 1 day, but not only do I prefer CCW I also think it flows just fine.
My conspiracy theory for the CW preference is this: It was built to be raced CW, so, of course, the racers want to stick with running it CW so they can get as much practice in before it officially opens, and who runs the track orgs? Oh ya, racers!!! It's a consperuhsee I tells ya!!!!!!!

Originally Posted by cobra525

CCW. That is all, carry on

Werd.

Originally Posted by tarik

It's just more technical that way. CCW you have 15, 13, 12, 11, 5 and 2 that are all become relatively more technical. Plus the straights tend to end in tighter corners going CCW than CW. That's part of what hurts the flow. Not as fun to have to stand the bike on the front wheel for a hairpin after every straight. At least it's nice to have the option to run both ways. Better riders will probably stand out more going CCW.

I think you nailed why I like CCW better, braking zones are my FAVORITE thing at trackdays, I love braking, hard braking, it's absolutely the funnest thing in the world! Weeeeeee!

OOk · 09-11-2009, 12:18 PM

Originally Posted by Soil

The exit... folks are putting their hands up coming out of T12 (a couple going INTO it!) to exit the track... As Deerhunter said... best thing to do is stay on it thru 13, and not apex 14.

I will disagree with this point, however. Turn 12 is a very tight slow turn, I get my hand up at the exit of twelve (sometimes will even put my right foot out as I'm still leaned over) and move as far left as possible. Because this is such a tight turn and speeds are slower, putting a hand up is not really requiring a large adjustment from the rider behind that wants to stay on track. And because of the lower speeds the distance between 12 and 13 are greater, giving plenty of time/room for others to pass. But bombing it up 13 with someone right behind you, maybe calculating a 13-14 pass and then all of a sudden raising your hand and slowing down to exit is a bit more abrupt, IMO, as the speeds are higher exiting 13, reaction times are shorter and the distance between 13 and 14 then becomes shorter.
Eh, again, just my opinion.

Soil · 09-11-2009, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by OOk

I will disagree with this point, however. Turn 12 is a very tight slow turn, I get my hand up at the exit of twelve (sometimes will even put my right foot out as I'm still leaned over) and move as far left as possible. Because this is such a tight turn and speeds are slower, putting a hand up is not really requiring a large adjustment from the rider behind that wants to stay on track. And because of the lower speeds the distance between 12 and 13 are greater, giving plenty of time/room for others to pass. But bombing it up 13 with someone right behind you, maybe calculating a 13-14 pass and then all of a sudden raising your hand and slowing down to exit is a bit more abrupt, IMO, as the speeds are higher exiting 13, reaction times are shorter and the distance between 13 and 14 then becomes shorter.
Eh, again, just my opinion.

first - everything is just opinion.

and - upon reading this post, I concur... THAT means, I was wrong about that part... well... except nobody should be 'shooting' to the left there, but alas - I have seen that too.... think I agree totally. BUT man, t13 is such a fun turn to rip thru! bummer for future CW days.

LOVE your cunspearasee thought!

I've got 7 or 8 CW now and only 1 CCW... and still think CCW flowed better.

OOk · 09-11-2009, 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by Soil

first - everything is just opinion.

and - upon reading this post, I concur... THAT means, I was wrong about that part... well... except nobody should be 'shooting' to the left there, but alas - I have seen that too.... think I agree totally. BUT man, t13 is such a fun turn to rip thru! bummer for future CW days.

LOVE your cunspearasee thought!

I've got 7 or 8 CW now and only 1 CCW... and still think CCW flowed better.

Ya, I changed 'shooting to the left' as it was incorrect. I think I was thinkin of the 14 line, my foggy brain confused me. I remembered that I swoop the exit of 13 almost out to the edge... I need to way later apex that turn.

PeteN95 · 09-11-2009, 12:55 PM

Couple thoughts, but I've only run CCW on the first day. First, it is an awesome track and I can't wait to try CW. The turns that scared me CCW were 7 and 15 because they are fast and blind. 7 just took a while to learn the line, but 15 is some scary shit CCW! Scraping your head on that wall and having the track fall away with a slightly decreasing double apex in 4th gear!!? There may be plenty of run off, but it would still suck bad! CW looks like more wheelie possibilities too?

OOk · 09-11-2009, 01:10 PM

Originally Posted by PeteN95

Couple thoughts, but I've only run CCW on the first day. First, it is an awesome track and I can't wait to try CW. The turns that scared me CCW were 7 and 15 because they are fast and blind. 7 just took a while to learn the line, but 15 is some scary shit CCW! Scraping your head on that wall and having the track fall away with a slightly decreasing double apex in 4th gear!!? There may be plenty of run off, but it would still suck bad! CW looks like more wheelie possibilities too?

CW has just as many scary blind corners, so there is really going to be no relief there!!! 15 is better CW but still plenty blind, I hate not seeing my exit before I commit to my apex. So 15 is odd in both directions, imo.
I am more scared of 6/7 CW cause you are on the fucking boil and have to commit to ONE line, praying that there is nothing stalled or slow in the way as you crest 6. But CCW you are still accelerating out of 8, so it may be just as blind, but I think there are more options as the speeds are a bit slower in comparison.
But comin down the hill into the barn corner (5) is THE BEST (CCW). The camber just sucks you in, every time you realize you coulda braked way later if you had more guts! and then you flip it left and the off camber of 4 is irrelevant as the front has very little weight on it. Barn is 10 times more fun CCW.
Jesus, I need to get back out there!!!!

watskooo · 09-11-2009, 02:52 PM

I've only ridden CW, but after being to the other tracks in the NW, why are people worried about ORP? Seems to me there is at least as much runoff there as PR, SCR or PIR, if not more runoff in most places. It wasn't the easiest track to learn, but it definitely seemed like a relatively safe track to me.

tarik · 09-11-2009, 03:36 PM

Originally Posted by OOk

I think you nailed why I like CCW better, braking zones are my FAVORITE thing at trackdays, I love braking, hard braking, it's absolutely the funnest thing in the world! Weeeeeee!

I think what a lot of people consider a "flowing" track is the opposite of that. One example would be having the corners link together by putting a sweeper between a straightaway and a hairpin to gradual slow down in increments rather than having a hairpin immediately following a straight. Flowing is not any better or worse, just comes down to rider preference. I'm glad PSSR didn't switch direction between the days because I wanted to really get to learn one config, but I can't wait to get a few days running it CCW. Gives us another track to play with.

SMOKE · 09-11-2009, 04:08 PM

Clayster, I've ridden orp Both ways and loved both although CW seems faster and has a couple Less oh shit turns than ccw. LOVE Orp!! Yeah Yeah

Deerhunter · 09-11-2009, 05:57 PM

Originally Posted by OOk

But bombing it up 13 with someone right behind you, maybe calculating a 13-14 pass and then all of a sudden raising your hand and slowing down to exit is a bit more abrupt, IMO, as the speeds are higher exiting 13, reaction times are shorter and the distance between 13 and 14 then becomes shorter.
Eh, again, just my opinion.

Read it again. Go ahead and bomb it up out of T13 but DON'T slow until AFTER the T14 apex and it becomes absolutely necessary to do so to get into the, and I repeat, "HOT PIT"

.You're way fast going up the hill because you're not turning into T14 like everyone that's staying out. You've left them behind if you stay left runnning a straight line toward the entrance and haven't lifted. That's the key. Don't lift until you're clear. It's easy.

Deerhunter · 09-11-2009, 06:04 PM

Originally Posted by OOk

I am more scared of 6/7 CW cause you are on the fucking boil and have to commit to ONE line, praying that there is nothing stalled or slow in the way as you crest 6.

Jesus, I need to get back out there!!!!

Not pickin' on ya', really. Start looking at the marshall's stands, just as soon as they come into view, and you'll feel a tad more comfortable that it's okay to keep it pinned. And there is some track up there if the marshall was asleep at the wheel.

Yep, I'm for gettin' back out there as soon as possible. Palatov anyone?

For all of the CCW preferers.......in the current corner marshall barrier config there is an issue with running CCW. We ran CW both days at PSSR because of it. We'll have to wait and see what happens with Palatov.

Soil · 09-11-2009, 09:09 PM

Originally Posted by Deerhunter

....in the current corner marshall barrier config there is an issue with running CCW. We ran CW both days at PSSR because of it.

huh???

where is the issue? I was looking for it. and just re-ran my track movie... what am I MISSING?????? Phil, are you just teasing me... AGAIN?

and palatov - ME WANNA! definite maybe for me right now... (but gotta wait and seeeeeee

Lee650 · 09-11-2009, 10:48 PM

I've run it both ways and the only safety issue is turn 15 going CCW. Because of the wall you can not see around the corner and this is where riders are entering the track. Going CW you have much more time to see the traffic entering the track and deal with it, as long as they stay to the outside of turn one. As for the rest of the track it's just a matter taking your time to learn it in either direction. Personally I think CCW is a little more technical and it's my favorite direction.

trayson · 09-11-2009, 11:47 PM

Originally Posted by Soil

huh???

where is the issue? I was looking for it. and just re-ran my track movie... what am I MISSING?????? Phil, are you just teasing me... AGAIN?

and palatov - ME WANNA! definite maybe for me right now... (but gotta wait and seeeeeee

From what I hear, Palatov is filling up fast. Check their website. It's already full for cars on Sunday...

From their website:

NOTE: Car registration for Sunday the 27th is now FULL. Only a few spots remain for Monday cars and both days bikes.

Don't wait.... DO.

Soil · 09-14-2009, 09:58 AM

Originally Posted by Lee650

I've run it both ways and the only safety issue is turn 15 going CCW. Because of the wall you can not see around the corner and this is where riders are entering the track. Going CW you have much more time to see the traffic entering the track and deal with it, as long as they stay to the outside of turn one. As for the rest of the track it's just a matter taking your time to learn it in either direction. Personally I think CCW is a little more technical and it's my favorite direction.

agree with underline

disagree with red - as long as those coming on follow the RULES, there's no issue... and you know going CW someone decided to just pop out onto the track thru the cones and almost knocked into me at 130 or so... sooo - from THAT perspective (rule breaking) either way is pretty freaking SCARY.

PHIL - what's the issue with corner stations going CCW???

Aprilia · 09-14-2009, 11:25 AM

Phil, I'm going to TRY to get in for Palatov... can I paddock with ya again? (I'll bring my generator again, so I don't go out on COLD tires IF you forget to plug them in again...

) I'll see if I can't drag Brian out again, too.

Sax

bigtbone · 09-14-2009, 02:06 PM

I've ridden both direction. Personally, I prefer counter clockwise both from a safety and fun factor. Counter clockwise is harder to ride a liter bike fast than clockwise (down hill braking vs. uphill braking).

The biggest safety problem (and an easily fixed one) with ORP is track entry and exit in either direction. There doesnt seem to have been much thought about track entry and exit considering how the hot pit and front straight are designed/constructed. Clockwise, the track exit is relatively easy and safe. Track entry is a complete mess. The hot pit road and merge is far too short and without cones dumps you out onto the front straight on the fast line with no room for error. Extending the cones down, like PSSR did, is a quick fix but not a real solution. The real solution is the widen and pave the track entry and/or front straight so that you are not putting vehicles and people so close together at such dramatic speed differences. Turn 15 coming onto the front straight is a problem. It is never safe and shouldnt be acceptable to point your bike at the corner of a wall for an apex point. Much work needs to be done there.

Counter-clockwise track exit is smooth and easy, but would work better and be safer with increased paved area where vehicles get off the track and away from the vehicles continuing at speed. Turn 1 is gnarly, again pointing at a wall at an even higher speed is never good. This direction is safer for the track entry considering that a fast line through there pushes you to the left of the track and the track entry is on the opposite side of the track. However, additional pavement and barrier here would be much better.

Other issues are the run-off irregularities (easily fixed with a couple days and tractors) and pavement seams (not such an easy fix). The pavement seams are quite deep and wide in some of the corners. Over time, cars will make these far worse. Cones used to mark certain aspect of the track need to be placed by someone who knows what they are doing. Back in April at my event, when we arrived the cones were placed in random and wrong areas. Much time was spent surveying the course and sight lines and placing the cones. The track should consider some semi-permanent cones like Miller has in marking some of these areas.

From a customer service point of view, the track has alot to learn. Full port-a-poties, garbage cans, lack of water, power, etc. There is no excuse for full port-a-potties, garbage bins/cans during an event. Its not like this was a spectator event, just a trackday. People remember things like this. People are willing to forego some creature comforts if the price is right. But the price isnt right. I can rent the full course at Miller for the same price as ORP. Does that make sense considering what you get for your money? For what you get, ORP trackdays should be $120-150 max, but because the rental is so high, the pricing is past down to the customers. Build permanent bathrooms/showers, increase track safety, larger paved paddock (far too small currently), better track control system (need a tower), install a PA system, 21st century control radios (not radio shack walkie talkies), have running water and electricity then charge what you charge. There is more to running a track than just putting pavement down and saying you're open for business.

Imagine what the rental rates will be once these things are done? A facility should be able to 'objectively' look at an evaluate their product and price it accordingly. I know it is expensive to pave and do the things that need to be done. But charging Marriot prices with Super 8 quality/ammenities leaves you with ALOT of vacancies.

dirtburch · 09-14-2009, 06:27 PM

Regarding ORP in its current state:

The biggest element of safety can be managed by what's between the ears of the rider or driver. It is simply not worth trying to go fast when you don't know where the track is headed or take any unnecessary risks in either direction that will only net a bad result. If you keep your riding or driving in perspective and treat the course with respect there is a lot of opportunity to refine your skills and do it safely in a controlled environment, RIGHT NOW.

OOk · 09-14-2009, 08:08 PM

Originally Posted by Deerhunter

Read it again. Go ahead and bomb it up out of T13 but DON'T slow until AFTER the T14 apex and it becomes absolutely necessary to do so to get into the, and I repeat, "HOT PIT"

.You're way fast going up the hill because you're not turning into T14 like everyone that's staying out. You've left them behind if you stay left runnning a straight line toward the entrance and haven't lifted. That's the key. Don't lift until you're clear. It's easy.

Ya I hear what you're saying, makes sense. But coming out of 14 WOT to stay outta others way, with my hand up entering the "hot pits" is not how I feel comfortable comin off the track. Every other track I've ridden (which is not admittedly a lot) you come off the racing line and pace at least 1 or 2 turns before pitting. I'll keep putting my hand up after 12 until the race orgs start saying that's incorrect and dangerous.

Originally Posted by Deerhunter

Not pickin' on ya', really...

Oh noez, stop picking on me ya jerk!!!!!

No worries!

greg canright · 09-15-2009, 08:29 AM

[QUOTE=OOk;1861238]Ya I hear what you're saying, makes sense. But coming out of 14 WOT to stay outta others way, with my hand up entering the "hot pits" is not how I feel comfortable comin off the track. Every other track I've ridden (which is not admittedly a lot) you come off the racing line and pace at least 1 or 2 turns before pitting. I'll keep putting my hand up after 12 until the race orgs start saying that's incorrect and dangerous. /QUOTE]

I agree. At the most recent PSSR event two of us who were charging hard up the hill and passing on the outside in 14 almost ass packed an exiting rider when he threw up his hand after 13 and promptly exited. Track exit should always be indicated early where there is a good line of site and then the overtaking rider has the responsibility of adjusting his/her line as needed.

MMAGuy1970 · 09-15-2009, 09:55 AM

Originally Posted by dirtburch

Regarding ORP in its current state:

The biggest element of safety can be managed by what's between the ears of the rider or driver. If you keep your riding or driving in perspective and treat the course with respect there is a lot of opportunity to refine your skills and do it safely in a controlled environment, RIGHT NOW.

Big

And my vote goes for CCW.

Soil · 09-15-2009, 10:15 AM

sooo - a brief look at this thread tells me a couple things:

1. Phil is off at a track somewhere and can't respond right now because his statement about a 'corner worker station' issue when running CCW is the ONLY thing that suggests there is a 'safer' way around ORP.

2. of those responding, it appears CCW is actually the preferred direction.

sooooo -

3. I suggest the next ORP events be ALL CCW!!!

(REALLY hope I can make them!)

Deerhunter · 09-18-2009, 01:59 PM

Back online. Got beat up pretty bad by Ken Hill at TH

. Looks like I'll be goin' slow for awhile

.

The track manager tells me they arranged the barriers at the corner marshall towers to protect them from cars. There still has to be an open space in the barrier for ingress/egress and the configuration left them unprotected when running CCW. He knew that safety was jeopardized CCW with cars and suspected it might be with bikes as well. He made the CW requirement public at the PSSR event. I let Morgan know this and perhaps they have decided that it is not a problem with bikes. However, if they still see it as a problem with cars, then I doubt Palatov will run the cars CW both days and the bikes CCW on one of them.

Deerhunter · 09-18-2009, 02:01 PM

Originally Posted by dirtburch

The biggest element of safety can be managed by what's between the ears of the rider or driver.

THAT'S scary

.

Deerhunter · 09-18-2009, 02:23 PM

Originally Posted by Aprilia

Phil, I'm going to TRY to get in for Palatov... can I paddock with ya again? (I'll bring my generator again, so I don't go out on COLD tires IF you forget to plug them in again...

I threw that cord out but bring the generator anyway (with a really long extension cord). I actually think it was Brian fuckling with ya' 'cause his were warm

. Hope to see you there.

Soil · 09-18-2009, 08:57 PM

Originally Posted by Deerhunter

Back online. Got beat up pretty bad by Ken Hill at TH

. Looks like I'll be goin' slow for awhile

.

The track manager tells me they arranged the barriers at the corner marshall towers to protect them from cars. There still has to be an open space in the barrier for ingress/egress and the configuration left them unprotected when running CCW. He knew that safety was jeopardized CCW with cars and suspected it might be with bikes as well. He made the CW requirement public at the PSSR event. I let Morgan know this and perhaps they have decided that it is not a problem with bikes. However, if they still see it as a problem with cars, then I doubt Palatov will run the cars CW both days and the bikes CCW on one of them.

now that's what I'm talking about... a REASON!!!

Thanks Dr. Phil!!!!

now - about getting 'beat up'... You want I should go talk to this guy?

I am TRYING to get to ORP for palatov!!!!

seeya'!
C


09-10-2009, 09:26 PM	#1
Soil Zone Head Joined: Mar 2008 From: Beaverton, OR - CLAY I Ride: K6 GSXR 1K	ORP CW / CCW ? discuss Can we talk? after MANY discussions there are a few key turns that need to be pointed out in this 'safer' and 'flow-ier' CW or CCW discussion... first, let's establish some definitions... since PSSR is the only map I have seen with 16 turns, so let's use the majority rules thing on that subject - ORP has 15 turns according to their website layout, please refer to that for the following discussion as always safety first: T12... CW - if you came in too hot and couldn't stop and decided to run off, what would happen? THAT jersey barrier would stop you from falling off the 20 plus foot drop off... unless you ejected over the jersey barrier - that would hurt. T3... CW - Barn (worst case), ouch. T7... CW - imagine coming down that hill from T6, before you tip into T7, and your brakes fail... where will you run off? another ouch. now - to keep things simple, gonna use the same turn numbers for the same turns... but switch the directions. So - other direction, what's the 'unsafe' turns? none. Those mentioned above will not produce those same increased risks... Think through all the turns - ALL of them are 'safer' from a "you have no brakes" kind of run off - or a typical low side situation... Next - flow... the coolest part of the track is the half pipe. So - going CW it is a 'flat line' from T9 to T10 while the 'right line' thru CCW is to late apex both those turns. THAT causes more 'swooping', more flowing than you can imagine if you haven't done it. ADD to that - the 'entrance/exit' that T8 (CW) is... how many folks 'enjoy' entering the pipe CW? now, flip it... imagine the natural and correct drive you would have leaving UP that hill instead of driving down it and trying to mid apex T9. SO - why then does everyone say CCW doesn't flow? CCW isn't as safe???? T11 and T13. Taking T11 and 13 (15 turn track) CW is GREAT! reverse them and they are pretty terrifying! T3 is a bit of a blind left with a little downhill... well, T11 and 13 CCW are HORRIFYINGLY blind, downhill and have some serious camber challenges. T8 (CCW) Leaving the pipe, driving up that hill and flipping it back down into that trough is 'itchy'... BUT - a LOT less 'itchy' than driving down into the pipe... SO - T11 and 13 alone do increase the chance of a get off if you don't ride them properly... BUT the run off is still safe and since no matter what, folks are going to go down both ways... learning to ride those right aint any tuffer than learning T12 CW! OH - look at T12 going CCW - A LOT safer and more fun! ONE more 'safer' thing - track entrance and exit - think about it... NUFF said there. Soooo... I'm a very open minded dude with a tad bit of 'eager to learn' in me - so please, anyone that can explain why they think CW is better or safer than CCW, enlighten me? and I am NOT afraid of saying - "I was wrong" !!!! been wrong a LOT, pretty used to it, ask anybody! __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


09-10-2009, 09:48 PM	#2
dwschultzy Superbiker Joined: Nov 2007 From: auburn Blog Entries: 2 I Ride: CBR	i've only done ccw.... are the corners still off camber if you go cw? __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


09-11-2009, 12:17 AM	#3
trayson Pit Crew Joined: May 2008 From: Vancouver WA I Ride: 2005 Kawi ZX-6R 636	LOL, guess what Clay, remember that funny map I had that had what you're calling T12 labled at T13? Guess where PSSR got it? Yep, right off ORP's website. Admittedly, it looks like a "car" map because the driving line if that of what a car would take. But interesting nonetheless. But since I'm nice, I made you a nice pretty map with the turns labled as you are describing them above. (i.e. I added numbers in red to the ORP map) __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


09-11-2009, 04:49 AM	#4
Deerhunter Endorsed Joined: Oct 2007 From: Portland, OR I Ride: Motorbikes	Good luck with this one, Clay . Personally, I think it's plenty safe for bikes in either direction (except for that wall below T12). __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


09-11-2009, 08:21 AM	#6
ducatichick WMRRA Qualifier Joined: Jul 2009 From: Corvallis, OR I Ride: 08 Hypervibrator	ORP (CCW and CW) is probably the safest track I've ever run, except for Jennings GP in Florida which doesn't allow cars . __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter

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09-11-2009, 09:29 AM	#7
Paytheon Pit Crew Joined: Oct 2007 From: Hillsboro, OR I Ride: 07 YZF-R6 Candy Red	I've only done ORP CW and found it to be an incredible track. My personal opinion is it's an easier track than THill, but there are some who disagree with my assessment. Eitherway, ORP is the track I will definately be at the most. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


09-11-2009, 09:55 AM	#8
cobra525 Superbiker Joined: Mar 2006 From: Marysville, Wa I Ride: better than him^^some day	CCW. That is all, carry on __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


09-11-2009, 10:55 AM	#11
tarik Training Wheels Joined: Feb 2007 From: Beaverton, OR I Ride: 04 Honda cbr600rr	Haven't run CCW, so keep that in mind, but based on the track layout here's my opinion. I don't think it's safety issues that people complain about going CCW. It's just more technical that way. CW you have turns 3-4 and 8 and 12 that stand out. CCW you have 15, 13, 12, 11, 5 and 2 that are all become relatively more technical. Plus the straights tend to end in tighter corners going CCW than CW. That's part of what hurts the flow. Not as fun to have to stand the bike on the front wheel for a hairpin after every straight. At least it's nice to have the option to run both ways. Better riders will probably stand out more going CCW. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


09-11-2009, 11:43 AM	#13
Soil Zone Head Joined: Mar 2008 From: Beaverton, OR - CLAY I Ride: K6 GSXR 1K	CW/CCW - I'm there regardless! on / off track: CW - folks are BARRELING down the straight and get within inches of the cones on the left entering T1. PSSR extended the cones all the way to the end of the entrance curbing, for safety's sake. Some one jumped out of the cones about mid hill and almost hit me Monday (that sucked). The exit... folks are putting their hands up coming out of T12 (a couple going INTO it!) to exit the track... As Deerhunter said... best thing to do is stay on it thru 13, and not apex 14. BUT - the other way -CCW... Leaving T2(CCW) would be the time to toss up a hand and stay right. PLENTY of room for faster riders to see you exiting, Plenty of room over the crest of the hill for a line of cones.... and entering the CCW direction - VERY easy to stay right and avoid any T15 traffic, then blend in at entrance to T13... Sorry guys - I just don't buy the 'safety' argument. I TOTALLY agree with tarik about it being a 'technical' thing. T11 and T13 are REALLY scary going CCW... straights into tight turns: like T12 going CW... T2 CCW becomes something like that, except you have much less of a 'down hill' drive/brake situation and you can see the entire turn from the entrance. T11 and T13, as stated, are the ugly ones... T15 CCW is actually about the same both directions from a 'blind' standpoint. T12 CCW is SOO much better though. The other 'off a straight' situation would be T5 - again, CCW is less blind but does have some downhill braking if you are pushing - but it is really wide right there (feels it anyway)... So - still not convinced CW is safer or more 'flowing' - Don't get me wrong PLEASE... BOTH are AWESOME! think it may be time for a walk around and some pictures! sounds like another trip to grass valley!!!! who's in? __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


09-11-2009, 11:45 AM	#14
nuK Pit Crew Joined: Apr 2008 From: AREA54.fm I Ride: 02 Falco, 08 1098, 04 250SX, 08 X18, 99 dpcars.net 748	I've ridden CW thus far, therefore, I'll refrain from speaking further until after I return from the Palatov double header going CCW later this month. Clay, thanks so much for the critique! It's ALL I've been thinking about since I left. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter Last edited by nuK; 09-11-2009 at 11:49 AM..


09-11-2009, 12:55 PM	#19
PeteN95 Superbiker Joined: Jan 2008 From: Muk, WA I Ride: Suzuki SV1000N, XR650R, CRF450R	Couple thoughts, but I've only run CCW on the first day. First, it is an awesome track and I can't wait to try CW. The turns that scared me CCW were 7 and 15 because they are fast and blind. 7 just took a while to learn the line, but 15 is some scary shit CCW! Scraping your head on that wall and having the track fall away with a slightly decreasing double apex in 4th gear!!? There may be plenty of run off, but it would still suck bad! CW looks like more wheelie possibilities too? __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


09-11-2009, 02:52 PM	#21
watskooo Pit Crew Joined: Mar 2008 From: Spokane, WA I Ride: 06 SV650 Street & 02 RC51 Track	I've only ridden CW, but after being to the other tracks in the NW, why are people worried about ORP? Seems to me there is at least as much runoff there as PR, SCR or PIR, if not more runoff in most places. It wasn't the easiest track to learn, but it definitely seemed like a relatively safe track to me. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


09-11-2009, 04:08 PM	#23
SMOKE WMRRA Qualifier Joined: Apr 2008 From: Beaverton, OR I Ride: Like an old Fart:)	Clayster, I've ridden orp Both ways and loved both although CW seems faster and has a couple Less oh shit turns than ccw. LOVE Orp!! Yeah Yeah __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


09-11-2009, 10:48 PM	#27
Lee650 Superbiker Joined: Apr 2007 From: Milwaukie, Oregon I Ride: K1200R Sport; 07 600RR	I've run it both ways and the only safety issue is turn 15 going CCW. Because of the wall you can not see around the corner and this is where riders are entering the track. Going CW you have much more time to see the traffic entering the track and deal with it, as long as they stay to the outside of turn one. As for the rest of the track it's just a matter taking your time to learn it in either direction. Personally I think CCW is a little more technical and it's my favorite direction. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


09-14-2009, 11:25 AM	#30
Aprilia Sweep Crusader Joined: May 2009 From: Portland, OR I Ride: ... "sweep."	Phil, I'm going to TRY to get in for Palatov... can I paddock with ya again? (I'll bring my generator again, so I don't go out on COLD tires IF you forget to plug them in again... ) I'll see if I can't drag Brian out again, too. Sax __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


09-14-2009, 02:06 PM	#31
bigtbone Training Wheels Joined: Nov 2007 From: Lake Oswego, OR I Ride: Ducati 1098, Honda CRF450r	I've ridden both direction. Personally, I prefer counter clockwise both from a safety and fun factor. Counter clockwise is harder to ride a liter bike fast than clockwise (down hill braking vs. uphill braking). The biggest safety problem (and an easily fixed one) with ORP is track entry and exit in either direction. There doesnt seem to have been much thought about track entry and exit considering how the hot pit and front straight are designed/constructed. Clockwise, the track exit is relatively easy and safe. Track entry is a complete mess. The hot pit road and merge is far too short and without cones dumps you out onto the front straight on the fast line with no room for error. Extending the cones down, like PSSR did, is a quick fix but not a real solution. The real solution is the widen and pave the track entry and/or front straight so that you are not putting vehicles and people so close together at such dramatic speed differences. Turn 15 coming onto the front straight is a problem. It is never safe and shouldnt be acceptable to point your bike at the corner of a wall for an apex point. Much work needs to be done there. Counter-clockwise track exit is smooth and easy, but would work better and be safer with increased paved area where vehicles get off the track and away from the vehicles continuing at speed. Turn 1 is gnarly, again pointing at a wall at an even higher speed is never good. This direction is safer for the track entry considering that a fast line through there pushes you to the left of the track and the track entry is on the opposite side of the track. However, additional pavement and barrier here would be much better. Other issues are the run-off irregularities (easily fixed with a couple days and tractors) and pavement seams (not such an easy fix). The pavement seams are quite deep and wide in some of the corners. Over time, cars will make these far worse. Cones used to mark certain aspect of the track need to be placed by someone who knows what they are doing. Back in April at my event, when we arrived the cones were placed in random and wrong areas. Much time was spent surveying the course and sight lines and placing the cones. The track should consider some semi-permanent cones like Miller has in marking some of these areas. From a customer service point of view, the track has alot to learn. Full port-a-poties, garbage cans, lack of water, power, etc. There is no excuse for full port-a-potties, garbage bins/cans during an event. Its not like this was a spectator event, just a trackday. People remember things like this. People are willing to forego some creature comforts if the price is right. But the price isnt right. I can rent the full course at Miller for the same price as ORP. Does that make sense considering what you get for your money? For what you get, ORP trackdays should be $120-150 max, but because the rental is so high, the pricing is past down to the customers. Build permanent bathrooms/showers, increase track safety, larger paved paddock (far too small currently), better track control system (need a tower), install a PA system, 21st century control radios (not radio shack walkie talkies), have running water and electricity then charge what you charge. There is more to running a track than just putting pavement down and saying you're open for business. Imagine what the rental rates will be once these things are done? A facility should be able to 'objectively' look at an evaluate their product and price it accordingly. I know it is expensive to pave and do the things that need to be done. But charging Marriot prices with Super 8 quality/ammenities leaves you with ALOT of vacancies. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


09-14-2009, 06:27 PM	#32
dirtburch Training Wheels Joined: Jul 2009 From: Lake Oswego, OR I Ride: Whatever I Can	Orp Regarding ORP in its current state: The biggest element of safety can be managed by what's between the ears of the rider or driver. It is simply not worth trying to go fast when you don't know where the track is headed or take any unnecessary risks in either direction that will only net a bad result. If you keep your riding or driving in perspective and treat the course with respect there is a lot of opportunity to refine your skills and do it safely in a controlled environment, RIGHT NOW. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


09-15-2009, 08:29 AM	#34
greg canright Training Wheels Joined: Apr 2007 From: Seattle, WA I Ride: slowly round and round	[QUOTE=OOk;1861238]Ya I hear what you're saying, makes sense. But coming out of 14 WOT to stay outta others way, with my hand up entering the "hot pits" is not how I feel comfortable comin off the track. Every other track I've ridden (which is not admittedly a lot) you come off the racing line and pace at least 1 or 2 turns before pitting. I'll keep putting my hand up after 12 until the race orgs start saying that's incorrect and dangerous. /QUOTE] I agree. At the most recent PSSR event two of us who were charging hard up the hill and passing on the outside in 14 almost ass packed an exiting rider when he threw up his hand after 13 and promptly exited. Track exit should always be indicated early where there is a good line of site and then the overtaking rider has the responsibility of adjusting his/her line as needed. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


09-15-2009, 10:15 AM	#36
Soil Zone Head Joined: Mar 2008 From: Beaverton, OR - CLAY I Ride: K6 GSXR 1K	sooo - a brief look at this thread tells me a couple things: 1. Phil is off at a track somewhere and can't respond right now because his statement about a 'corner worker station' issue when running CCW is the ONLY thing that suggests there is a 'safer' way around ORP. 2. of those responding, it appears CCW is actually the preferred direction. sooooo - 3. I suggest the next ORP events be ALL CCW!!! (REALLY hope I can make them!) __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


09-18-2009, 01:59 PM	#37
Deerhunter Endorsed Joined: Oct 2007 From: Portland, OR I Ride: Motorbikes	Back online. Got beat up pretty bad by Ken Hill at TH . Looks like I'll be goin' slow for awhile . The track manager tells me they arranged the barriers at the corner marshall towers to protect them from cars. There still has to be an open space in the barrier for ingress/egress and the configuration left them unprotected when running CCW. He knew that safety was jeopardized CCW with cars and suspected it might be with bikes as well. He made the CW requirement public at the PSSR event. I let Morgan know this and perhaps they have decided that it is not a problem with bikes. However, if they still see it as a problem with cars, then I doubt Palatov will run the cars CW both days and the bikes CCW on one of them. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter

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