"No session" track day? - Page 3

soggydoo · 06-29-2012, 08:11 PM

Dont let fear stop you

Jason D · 06-29-2012, 08:11 PM

Originally Posted by soggydoo

trash fee
security
camping fee

right off the top of my head

Not to mention the countless hours of setting it up and getting everything all in order to make the day happen. It is fun to a point.....and then it gets old real fast with the actual hours it takes to set everything up and the stress of making sure you do a quality event with no huge issues.

Then you get into the people it takes to get the day staffed. As for cornerworkers you can get by with 5 or 6 at PIR but ORP is like 9 and The Ridge is more like 12. Registration persons. Tech Persons. Control Riders you should probably have at least 8-10 so they are not expected to be on track ALL DAY. So it takes a few people to make it happen.

Jason D · 06-29-2012, 08:20 PM

Originally Posted by soggydoo

Dont let fear stop you

AMEN!

Real Fast Travis · 06-29-2012, 10:30 PM

Originally Posted by TJC

I'm curious what it costs to put on a trackday event*. The only local track that had published rental rates is ORP and I've heard ORP is cheaper than other tracks.

I ran the numbers (I can't help it, I'm a geek). I assumed
- An event in peak season (April - October)
- 8-hour day(s)
- 5 corner workers. (Why? Dunno, just seemed like the right number.)
- A chief of flags
- ALS + BLS support
- Charge $250 per day to the riders.

For a one-day mid-week rental you'd break-even with 26 riders. For a two-day mid-week rental you'd break even with 44 riders. For weekend days the break even points are 36 and 61 riders.

That doesn't seem that bad. Is there some additional charge I missed? Other than a crash-truck I don't see what's missing. Is ORP dramatically cheaper than other tracks?

Clearly people who have much more experience at this than I do have failed to get track days off the ground. So I assume there's some significant aspect I'm missing. (Or maybe it's just hard to get riders to show up at ORP.)

*I'm ignoring the costs related to a track school, or having instructors, or providing lunch or any of the other niceities usually provided. I'm just talking about a bare-bones open track event.

Looks about right. You don't show it, but there is a cost for the ambulance service.

You'll need insurance too.

So, if you figure the more reasonable price of $200.00, (especially for ORP, costs a lot to get there, and you'll need lodging) you're getting a lot closer to needing 40 riders.

Like Soogydo said, go for it!

Anyone can can rent a track. Whether or not you host a successful event, i.e. safe and fun for everyone, who knows?

Alanjtc73n · 06-29-2012, 11:31 PM

Originally Posted by TJC

I already said I suspected something was missing. So enlighten us. What needs to be added to the list?

Insurance.

The track will require insurance to cover the facility. As an individual or if you decide to put together an llc or the like, you'll probably want another policy to cover you or your organization.

Expect facility insurance to range from 1000-1400 depending on the facility. Coverage for yourself or your company will depend on how much you want covered and who you want covered. Just yourself or also your staff. Gets pricey but better than paying a lawsuit out of your own pocket.

TJC · 06-30-2012, 09:28 AM

Insurance (for the facility), and medical services, were included in the numbers I ran.

The logistics of registration, tech, and control riders might be a bigger hurdle but don't seem insurmountable.

Including clean-up, and using 9 corner workers it still looks like you could break even on a bare-bones event with 40 riders per day. (50 riders on the weekend.)

Deerhunter · 06-30-2012, 10:23 AM

Tracks will supply Corner Marshalls and what little cleanup there is. 40 private track day riders aren't going to be too messy anyway so those costs are factored in and not worried about. Tech is easy, registration is easy (am happy to help with both), control riders are not required (unless your audience wants some instruction) because your more experienced customers will police the group as a matter of everyone's safety and if you build it, I will come

.

soggydoo · 06-30-2012, 12:45 PM

I love it...where were all the "IN" guys when i was begging for deposits?

Deerhunter · 06-30-2012, 05:21 PM

You're right. I should have qualified that by saying I'm a fair weather rider that doesn't do rain. I've teched in the rain and I've hosed off muddy riders and their bikes in the rain. But I don't ride in the rain. I don't even ride on a wet track when it's NOT raining. Total wimp. Only did that when there was a $3 bowling trophy at stake

.

Real Fast Travis · 06-30-2012, 05:26 PM

Originally Posted by soggydoo

I love it...where were all the "IN" guys when i was begging for deposits?

Ha! That's the part of the equation the OP is missing....

Originally Posted by Deerhunter

You're right. I should have qualified that by saying I'm a fair weather rider that doesn't do rain. I've teched in the rain and I've hosed off muddy riders and their bikes in the rain. But I don't ride in the rain. I don't even ride on a wet track when it's NOT raining. Total wimp. Only did that when there was a $3 bowling trophy at stake

.

Because you Phil, are the MAN!

soggydoo · 06-30-2012, 05:31 PM

Originally Posted by Real Fast Travis

Ha! That's the part of the equation the OP is missing....

Because you Phil, are the MAN!

Phil is totally the man!

YOUNG HEART 750 · 06-30-2012, 06:15 PM

I would still love to see more of these. Really hoping for a couple open events next year that fit my schedule.

cobra525 · 06-30-2012, 06:20 PM

Originally Posted by Deerhunter

You're right. I should have qualified that by saying I'm a fair weather rider that doesn't do rain. I've teched in the rain and I've hosed off muddy riders and their bikes in the rain. But I don't ride in the rain. I don't even ride on a wet track when it's NOT raining. Total wimp. Only did that when there was a $3 bowling trophy at stake

.

Preach on brotha!

Alanjtc73n · 06-30-2012, 06:22 PM

Originally Posted by TJC

Insurance (for the facility), and medical services, were included in the numbers I ran.

The logistics of registration, tech, and control riders might be a bigger hurdle but don't seem insurmountable.

Including clean-up, and using 9 corner workers it still looks like you could break even on a bare-bones event with 40 riders per day. (50 riders on the weekend.)

If setting up track days was as easy financially and logistically as you described, what happened to Epic Track Days?...

TJC · 06-30-2012, 07:13 PM

I have no idea what happened to Epic. I know Nico a bit and I know he had experience running TDs before attempting to launch Epic so I have no doubt that he did it "the right way."

Maybe there's a big enough difference between "breaking even on a single bare bones event targetting experienced TD riders" and "trying to create a long-term business catering to a wide range of customers" to explain it. But I don't really know.

My point in bringing up the costs was to understand exactly the discrepancy you point out. The facts I have are
1) Tracks don't seem outrageously expensive (based on the public ORP info)
2) Most events, even if they don't sell out, have 60+ riders. Each paying $160-$200 to be there.
3) Despite 1 and 2 a couple of TD orgs have folded (or failed to launch) recently.

So clearly there's something missing.

Maybe it costs orgs a lot of money to promote their events to get even 60 people signed up on a regular basis. Maybe the logistics (tech + registration) costs are high. Maybe ORP is dramatically cheaper than other tracks. Maybe it's such a pain in the ass to run a trackday that no one wants to do it just to break even.

I don't know. That's why I asked.

soggydoo · 06-30-2012, 08:25 PM

what I think is rubbing some of wrong is the way you come across like you have it all figured out ...then try to pump information out of those of us that have tried. I suggest ( and im not trying to be mean) maybe you should run the number and try it for your self.

Its not that I dont want to help you, but every one of us that have done this didnt get to pick the brains of the ORG out their, we did our home work, made our calls, and invested our time.

Now if you want to hire one of us to get you going ( Im sure Travis could use some money) thats another story....

I have tons of break even sheets for ORP,PIR, The Ridge and T Hill....Information I gathered and busted my ass to get......Im not giving it away.

Alanjtc73n · 06-30-2012, 09:00 PM

Originally Posted by TJC

I have no idea what happened to Epic. I know Nico a bit and I know he had experience running TDs before attempting to launch Epic so I have no doubt that he did it "the right way."

Maybe there's a big enough difference between "breaking even on a single bare bones event targetting experienced TD riders" and "trying to create a long-term business catering to a wide range of customers" to explain it. But I don't really know.

My point in bringing up the costs was to understand exactly the discrepancy you point out. The facts I have are
1) Tracks don't seem outrageously expensive (based on the public ORP info)
2) Most events, even if they don't sell out, have 60+ riders. Each paying $160-$200 to be there.
3) Despite 1 and 2 a couple of TD orgs have folded (or failed to launch) recently.

So clearly there's something missing.

Maybe it costs orgs a lot of money to promote their events to get even 60 people signed up on a regular basis. Maybe the logistics (tech + registration) costs are high. Maybe ORP is dramatically cheaper than other tracks. Maybe it's such a pain in the ass to run a trackday that no one wants to do it just to break even.

I don't know. That's why I asked.

The highlighted statement couldn't be more wrong. Especially in the early and late season days. Get a string of bad weather days and you quickly lose participants. Nesba experienced this in their last year. Virtually every day they ran was a wet one.

Running a successful track day organization is incredibly simple. All you have to do is predict the weather about 6 months in advance, cross reference that with participants schedules and wives, provide crash insurance, pay for the participants days off from work, and some other stuff you have no control over.

Basically, you're not factoring in the human and nature factor. One rain day can be very detrimental to a track day organizer.

Oh and as for cost. ORP and PIR are cheap to run at. The Ridge and Pacific...not so much. A weekend date runs just about double a weekday date.

Deerhunter · 07-01-2012, 02:50 AM

Originally Posted by Alanjtc73n

ORP and PIR are cheap to run at. The Ridge and Pacific...not so much.

What exactly does "cheap" and "not so much" equal in numerical terms?

Real Fast Travis · 07-01-2012, 04:02 AM

Originally Posted by TJC

Maybe there's a big enough difference between "breaking even on a single bare bones event targetting experienced TD riders" and "trying to create a long-term business catering to a wide range of customers" to explain it. But I don't really know.

That's a big part of it....

Want to have a private day, just you and some friends...everybody splits the cost, no matter how high or low....then it is totally doable.

Going public, then it is a huge financial gamble....

Plain and simple, if it was easy, everyone would do it.

fastfoodfred · 07-01-2012, 07:43 AM

Personally, I think no session track days are absolutely the best. Up through 02 or 03 they were the only track day you were going to get in Spokane.

You can quit worrying about safety, too. We didn't even get turn workers or medics. You kids today have everything handed to you on a plate and still aren't happy.


06-29-2012, 08:11 PM	#41
soggydoo Novice Racer Joined: Mar 2006 From: medford, oregon	Dont let fear stop you __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


06-30-2012, 09:28 AM	#46
TJC Endorsed Joined: Jun 2009 From: Redmond, WA I Ride: two bikes in the morning. I ride two bikes at night. I ride two bikes in the afternoon cuz it makes me feel alright.	Insurance (for the facility), and medical services, were included in the numbers I ran. The logistics of registration, tech, and control riders might be a bigger hurdle but don't seem insurmountable. Including clean-up, and using 9 corner workers it still looks like you could break even on a bare-bones event with 40 riders per day. (50 riders on the weekend.) __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


06-30-2012, 10:23 AM	#47
Deerhunter Peg Dragger Joined: Oct 2007 From: Portland, OR I Ride: Motorbikes	Tracks will supply Corner Marshalls and what little cleanup there is. 40 private track day riders aren't going to be too messy anyway so those costs are factored in and not worried about. Tech is easy, registration is easy (am happy to help with both), control riders are not required (unless your audience wants some instruction) because your more experienced customers will police the group as a matter of everyone's safety and if you build it, I will come . __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter Last edited by Deerhunter; 06-30-2012 at 10:32 AM..


06-30-2012, 12:45 PM	#48
soggydoo Novice Racer Joined: Mar 2006 From: medford, oregon	I love it...where were all the "IN" guys when i was begging for deposits? __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


06-30-2012, 05:21 PM	#49
Deerhunter Peg Dragger Joined: Oct 2007 From: Portland, OR I Ride: Motorbikes	You're right. I should have qualified that by saying I'm a fair weather rider that doesn't do rain. I've teched in the rain and I've hosed off muddy riders and their bikes in the rain. But I don't ride in the rain. I don't even ride on a wet track when it's NOT raining. Total wimp. Only did that when there was a $3 bowling trophy at stake . __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


06-30-2012, 06:15 PM	#52
YOUNG HEART 750 Licensed Joined: Sep 2010 From: KLAMATH FALLS, OREGON I Ride: 09 GSX-R 750 Track bike. 09 R1 Street bike	I would still love to see more of these. Really hoping for a couple open events next year that fit my schedule. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


06-30-2012, 07:13 PM	#55
TJC Endorsed Joined: Jun 2009 From: Redmond, WA I Ride: two bikes in the morning. I ride two bikes at night. I ride two bikes in the afternoon cuz it makes me feel alright.	I have no idea what happened to Epic. I know Nico a bit and I know he had experience running TDs before attempting to launch Epic so I have no doubt that he did it "the right way." Maybe there's a big enough difference between "breaking even on a single bare bones event targetting experienced TD riders" and "trying to create a long-term business catering to a wide range of customers" to explain it. But I don't really know. My point in bringing up the costs was to understand exactly the discrepancy you point out. The facts I have are 1) Tracks don't seem outrageously expensive (based on the public ORP info) 2) Most events, even if they don't sell out, have 60+ riders. Each paying $160-$200 to be there. 3) Despite 1 and 2 a couple of TD orgs have folded (or failed to launch) recently. So clearly there's something missing. Maybe it costs orgs a lot of money to promote their events to get even 60 people signed up on a regular basis. Maybe the logistics (tech + registration) costs are high. Maybe ORP is dramatically cheaper than other tracks. Maybe it's such a pain in the ass to run a trackday that no one wants to do it just to break even. I don't know. That's why I asked. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


06-30-2012, 08:25 PM	#56
soggydoo Novice Racer Joined: Mar 2006 From: medford, oregon	what I think is rubbing some of wrong is the way you come across like you have it all figured out ...then try to pump information out of those of us that have tried. I suggest ( and im not trying to be mean) maybe you should run the number and try it for your self. Its not that I dont want to help you, but every one of us that have done this didnt get to pick the brains of the ORG out their, we did our home work, made our calls, and invested our time. Now if you want to hire one of us to get you going ( Im sure Travis could use some money) thats another story.... I have tons of break even sheets for ORP,PIR, The Ridge and T Hill....Information I gathered and busted my ass to get......Im not giving it away. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


07-01-2012, 07:43 AM	#60
fastfoodfred Moto2 Champion Joined: Mar 2006 From: spokane, wa I Ride: 2008 SXV4.5 + 1985 RZ350 + 2010 YZ250F +	Personally, I think no session track days are absolutely the best. Up through 02 or 03 they were the only track day you were going to get in Spokane. You can quit worrying about safety, too. We didn't even get turn workers or medics. You kids today have everything handed to you on a plate and still aren't happy. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter

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