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Old 07-14-2012, 03:40 PM   #21
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Joined: Aug 2008
From: Battle Ground, Wa.

I Ride: Not enough...
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Originally Posted by dammyneckhurts View Post
Ralph, sorry to derail your thread a bit here.....

Craig, At 48 years of age I am old enough to know that I need knowledge and understanding to ride faster and safer, so in the last few years I spent some time learning from some good coaches that really know their stuff.

I did race a long time ago, I raced 1989 and 1990 on a bone stock RZ 350. Back then there were no such thing as trackdays, if you wanted to go on a track you had to join a club and enter races. I had a blast but wife/education/career were beckoning so at the end of the 1990 season I sold everything and didn't ride at all till 2007 when I discovered track days. Since then no racing.... just having fun learning, and riding as many tracks as I am able.

I am not that fast, I regularly ride with 5 other "trackday only" guys my speed or faster only 1 of which has ever raced.

Yes the ergo's are a bit of a pain for those of us over 40... I rely on understanding and technique to get the job done vrs brute power and physical flexibility.

The FZ1 is a great bike.... I assume you have had Barry set up the suspension? If not definitely give him a call.....The 750 is also a great track bike, bar risers might help a lot to make it more comfortable?

Pat
Pat

"Knowledge and understanding" Care to elaborate?

And a couple more questions.

When you recorded the above video, were you right at the edge of your abilities, close to the edge, or just cruisen'? Did you at any time have a "OH SHIT" moment?

Did the bike ever slide? It seems to me that most riders corner (entry) speed is determined by their perception of the speed it takes to slide. They (I) think/feel that entering faster will result in loss of grip. You, and all fast riders, obviously have confidence in your bike/tires/abilities that us mortals don't. How do you teach others to find this confidence?


Fred (guy with the unicycle...)

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Old 07-14-2012, 07:20 PM   #22
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Fred.... Knowledge and Understanding for me starts with the fact that different corners require different strategies to go fast. Understanding that all corners are not the same is crucial. As new riders we tend to have one "movement pattern" and use the same "brake/steering timing' for all corners.... we brake, turn in and get to our max lean asap. We use this same pattern for all corners at all tracks and it works just fine in some corners but not so good in others.

Corners can be approached in a few different ways. Take turn one at The Ridge for example, this is a perfect example of an Entry Type Corner. For me there is zero acceleration out of turn one... if fact I am on the brakes all the way up to the entrance of turn two. Therefor we can modify how we ride this corner to maximize a longer-faster entry and sacrifice any ability to accelerate out of the corner. Thus slowest part of Turn One for me is very deep into the corner.... wayyyy past the apex curb you pass as you enter the corner. The max lean point is also way past the apex. We are gradually adding lean, and trailing the brakes as we pass the apex in turn one. NOTE: The only way you can trail your front brake well past the apex, is to build your lean angle gradually until you hit max lean and brakes are fully off at the slowest point.

Now look at the final right hand corner at The Ridge that leads you onto the front straight. This corner is the exact opposite of turn one and it is a perfect example of an Exit Type Corner... it has zero braking going in, and has a huge drive out onto the front straight. Therefor we can modify how we ride this corner to maximize a longer faster drive out of the corner. For maximum drive the slowest part, and maximum lean both need to be need to be before the apex, we need to reduce lean angle as we pass the apex. The safest way to be hard on the throttle is to be reducing lean angle as you add significant throttle.

These are two polar opposites of an "Entry Type Corner" and an "Exit Type Corner". Most corners are a blend of both to some degree but it's up to us to figure out what trait of either one will allow us to get through quicker.

Understanding the differences in corners will enable you to understand how/why the slowest part of the corner, and point of max lean varies from one corner to the next. It's crucial to have your slow part/max lean in the correct spot in the corner. Read this sentence 10 times as it is the most important thing to understand. Everything else you ever learn about how to go faster and safer on a bike relates back to this fundamental concept.

An easy way to figure out your stragagy for a given corner is to ask yourself what lasts longest..... the entry or the exit? Now if the entry and exit happen to be about the same, then it's a balanced corner. You can ride a balanced corner as either entry type, or exit type and it will not affect lap times much. If it's a fairly long balanced corner with lots of time spent mid corner at maintenance throttle (EG. turn 6 at The Ridge or turn 2 at T-Hill) we could treat it as 2 separate corners. We can ride it as an Entry Corner on the way in, and and exit corner on the way out. This is exactly how I attack turn 6 at The Ridge... most people just treat it as one long corner with soooo much time at maintenance throttle.

On the track it is apparent that a lot of riders are stuck with some version of the cornering skills they learned at MSF or perhaps from friends while street riding. The common trend I see is that riders strive to get braking done before the corner, set the speed before the corner starts, release the brake and turn into the corner. This works fine on the street at the posted speed limit, but when you get on the track and add significantly more speed it simply does not work any more. Using this technique your slowest part is almost always way too soon in the corner. The problem is that as you get braver and start going faster, this technique forces you to add more lean as you add more throttle. This is a very bad combination! This is where learning how to trail brake will transform your riding and give you more confidence and feel for the amount of grip you have at any given moment. There is another thread somewhere where I made a few posts about trailbraking..... Fred this paragraph starts to address your question about how fast guys are able to carry more speed into a corner and KNOW that the front tire will grip. The rest of the answer is using trail braking to increase the size of the contact patch under the front tire thus giving you more grip than if you release the brake too soon and get on the gas too soon. I have been talking about having your slowest point in the right spot in the corner, and in an entry type corner the slowest point needs to be deep into the corner past the apex... the only way to accomplish this is if you are proficient at trailing your brakes as you enter.

Thats all I have time for this part at the moment....


In the video there were zero oh shit moments, definitely not "just cruisin" but crashing sucks and I never push my personal limit, but there is one pass in that vid that I did not feel good about. I did get into turn 6 a bit hot one lap and was about 10 feet wide of my normal spot where I fully let off the brakes, (you can see where I crossed the seam mid corner where as other laps I stay inside the seam.)

Regarding sliding tires.... you can see the front tire squirm mid corner a few times in turn 6 and 15, and the rear squirms at corner exit pretty much everywhere there is hard acceleration.

It's probably best if people do not quote this entire thing in a reply.... that way I can go back and add more when I have time without loosing the edits to peoples quotes etc, Feel free to ask questions though....

Cheers,

Pat

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Last edited by dammyneckhurts; 07-16-2012 at 08:08 PM..
 
Old 07-16-2012, 08:48 AM   #23
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From: Portland

I Ride: dirty
^ Fabulous video...Thank you for posting it and for the explanation for the method to your awesomeness. For a track noobie its interesting seeing super fast laps like yours to see the lines into corners....they are soo different from what we were shown and not to mention what a track noob would automatically take. Especially turn 1, 6, 11 and 12.

Not to mention my neck hurt after watching that vid...damn entertaining no less

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Last edited by sachu; 07-16-2012 at 08:55 AM..
 
Old 07-16-2012, 07:09 PM   #24
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Joined: Aug 2008
From: Battle Ground, Wa.

I Ride: Not enough...
Pat,

Wow, thanks for the detailed response and explanations. We just got home from PIR where I tried to apply your suggestions. Trail-braking into 1, 4 and 7 much harder than usual resulted in no slides. I can see how this will build confidence in my bikes ability to grip.

"Understanding the differences in corners will enable you to understand how/why the slowest part of the corner, and point of max lean varies from one corner to the next. It's crucial to have your slow part/max lean in the correct spot in the corner. Read this sentence 10 times as it is the most important thing to understand. Everything else you ever learn about how to go faster and safer on a bike relates back to this fundamental concept."

I am going to print the above paragraph and hang it in my trailer. I hope that will help me (and wife) to commit it to memory and make it somewhat "automatic". It really does make sense, but it is sooo easy to ignore.

F

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Old 07-19-2012, 04:41 PM   #25
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Joined: Mar 2010
From: Spokane, WA

I Ride: '12 YZ450F, '09 ZX-6R(race), '10 NINJA 250R (race)
Thanks for sharing the insight. I recently learned about handling each corner differently, based on what you said. Another thing that stuck with me(Fred told me after towing me on my blk zx6r) pick a line...doesn't have to be the best or fastest, just pick one and stay consistent with it. It's difficult to judge your progress if you run different lines every session. Thanks for all the help guys, can't wait to get back on that track.

Malcolm

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Old 07-19-2012, 05:05 PM   #26
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Your welcome guys! Hope it helps

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Old 07-22-2012, 09:45 PM   #27
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Joined: Oct 2009
From: Vancouver, Canada

I Ride: Kawi 250, Triumph Thruxton
Thanks Pat for the informative video and followup post.

Hoping to make it down to the Ridge with PSSR in Sept 8/9th.

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Old 07-23-2012, 03:13 PM   #28
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Joined: Aug 2005
From: Spokane

I Ride: Yamaha FZ1, 08 gsxr 1000 trackbike
dam my neck hurts and everything else too!!
Pat,

Thanks too, for the tutorial on your video. Not sure if I can utilize the advice to make me any faster, but great advice from an achiever. I just hope I can make it back this year, one more time to:: (que; Pink Floyd song) "There is no sensation to compare to this, suspended animation, state of bliss, can't keep my eyes from the circling skies (the carousel) tongue tied and twisted, just an earth bound misfit, I. Yeah, I bet more than me, can identify with those song lyrics. Thanks again for sharing.


Craig
Pylon passing marker in the A group

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Old 08-20-2012, 08:47 PM   #29
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Joined: Apr 2011
From: Seattle, WA

I Ride: for OPRT
I'm really not sure how I missed this thread. As off topic as it may be, Pat's giant wall of text there really needs to be stickied somewhere. When I started watching this video I said out loud a few times "that has to be in fast forward", it took a little bit for it to sink in that Pat really was traveling that fast. Very impressive.

That is the most clear and descriptive advice I have seen/read/heard on corner exits and entrys. Honestly, I've never heard it described that way before and that was a little bit eye opening. I understand trail braking just fine but knowing different types of corners really ties to two together and makes them work in harmony. I feel this may be a sort of "missing link" for me and believe putting these 2 together will help in my personal quest to go faster and smoother.

Thank you ever so much for your time and well put together responses Pat, they mean alot to a newer rider like myself.

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Old 08-21-2012, 01:24 PM   #30
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From: Battle Ground, Wa.

I Ride: Not enough...
“ Quote:
Originally Posted by gannonjf View Post
i'm really not sure how i missed this thread. As off topic as it may be, pat's giant wall of text there really needs to be stickied somewhere. When i started watching this video i said out loud a few times "that has to be in fast forward", it took a little bit for it to sink in that pat really was traveling that fast. Very impressive.


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