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Old 09-14-2012, 09:15 AM   #21
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“ Quote:
Originally Posted by mgfchapin View Post
Your ladder analogy insinuates it, and my point is it's wrong, because people start doing track days at much different skill levels. Not everyone needs to start in beginner group, because it's not appropriate to stick someone who's done 10,000 miles dragging knee on back roads in the same track day group as a guy who's had his endorsement for 6 months.
You're right. Because the guys who show up with the attitude that because they've done something on the street, they shouldn't have to follow the rules of the track. They are usually the ones who create the biggest problems. It's called ego.



First time track riders should always start in the beginner group. If they are needed to bump up quickly, staff will recognize it.

So far this year....I've personally instructed 3 "fast street" guys who were doing their first track day. 2 of them didn't want to listen to a word I said. 2 of them didn't listen to me telling them to take it down a knotch and learn the track. 2 of them left the track in an ambulance. Ego's get people into the most trouble. I've done it to myself.



OP: You can listen to your ego, or follow instruction from the ones who host track days. I've personally always listened to the track day providers. Not the guys who think they're fast because they have dragged a knee.

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Old 09-14-2012, 09:38 AM   #22
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“ Quote:
Originally Posted by dwschultzy View Post
You're right. Because the guys who show up with the attitude that because they've done something on the street, they shouldn't have to follow the rules of the track. They are usually the ones who create the biggest problems. It's called ego.

First time track riders should always start in the beginner group. If they are needed to bump up quickly, staff will recognize it.
Ego's got nothing to do with it, it's putting people of similar skill in the same group. Far from breaking the rules of the track, it's a lot better than creating a nanny state track day and having a blanket policy to put everyone in the beginner group whether they're experienced riders or not.

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Old 09-14-2012, 09:50 AM   #23
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“ Quote:
Originally Posted by mgfchapin View Post
Ego's got nothing to do with it, it's putting people of similar skill in the same group. Far from breaking the rules of the track, it's a lot better than creating a nanny state track day and having a blanket policy to put everyone in the beginner group whether they're experienced riders or not.
The beginner group doesn't imply you're a beginner rider. It implies you're a beginner at the track. It will be very evident to the track day staff if you need to be moved up to the next group, if your abilities and or level is above the beginner level of that track day. I was told my first day I should move up, many others are told their first day. I was a "fast" guy on the street, but....I chose to listen to the guys who were running the track day vs my ego and i followed track day protocol. Not listen to the other fast street guys.

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Last edited by dwschultzy; 09-14-2012 at 09:59 AM..
 
Old 09-14-2012, 09:56 AM   #24
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“ Quote:
Originally Posted by mgfchapin View Post
Ego's got nothing to do with it, it's putting people of similar skill in the same group. Far from breaking the rules of the track, it's a lot better than creating a nanny state track day and having a blanket policy to put everyone in the beginner group whether they're experienced riders or not.
One last thing because discussing this topic with you is tiring....and I'm fat and lazy.


If its not ego, what makes you think you have the ability to judge what group you should or should not have been in when you did your first day?
Some form of school?
A track day staff member?
The "king of the street"?

I'm interested in hearing how you can possibly explain why you think you shouldn't have done atleast your first couple of sessions in the beginner group, without it sounding like its your ego explaining it.

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Last edited by dwschultzy; 09-14-2012 at 09:58 AM..
 
Old 09-14-2012, 10:04 AM   #25
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“ Quote:
Originally Posted by dwschultzy View Post
One last thing because discussing this topic with you is tiring....and I'm fat and lazy.


If its not ego, what makes you think you have the ability to judge what group you should or should not have been in when you did your first day?
Some firm of school?
A track day staff member?
The "king of the street"?

I'm interested in hearing how you can possibly explain why you think you shouldn't have done atleast your first couple of sessions in the beginner group, without it sounding like its your ego explaining it.
I rode the street with friends who were experienced track riders & racers. They suggested I do a track day with them and sign up for B. Not because I was "fast" because I could drag knee, but because they said I could ride predictably and hold a line. Turned out they were right and I was riding comfortably mid-pack all day. No ego.

Clearly we're of very different philosophies here and it's not really going anywhere, so whatever. All of the orgs I've ridden with up here are great and I have nothing but good to say about them, I'm just glad I'm not riding in C.

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Old 09-14-2012, 10:20 AM   #26
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Sign up for B. If you are too slow, hopefully they'll notice it and bump you down, or just ask to be. If you are faster, they'll bump you up to A.

Some track days I can carry A pace, others I need to be in C. I'm either on or off. I usually just start off in B and if I feel like I need to be moved, after a session or two, I politely ask and for the most part they are happy to oblige.

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Old 09-17-2012, 08:36 PM   #27
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Well I ran in B, kept the shiny side up, did some passing, got passed more, scuffed up a knee slider, scuffed up my toe sliders too much, dialed in my tire pressure, realized the stock location for the rearsets on my K5 GSXR is totally wrong for me, and generally had a blast.

Had an instructor follow me around - line, throttle, steering apparently looked ok for intermediate and I should continue to work on hanging my ass yet further of the bike if I was going to run with the fast B guys, as that's what's holding me back most now, evidenced by the toe sliding (well that and general inexperience.) All and all not terrible for my 2nd track day and third month of serious riding I reckon.

Unfortunately after sitting on a race prepped K6 GSXR 750, a triumph 675, and an 848 side by side with my bike I realize the K5 is a poor fit me for and the stock rear sets have no room for adjustment. Bummer.

But, long story short, went fast, no crash, good times. Appreciate the advice all.

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Last edited by PDXGSXR; 09-17-2012 at 08:40 PM..
 
Old 09-17-2012, 09:00 PM   #28
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You should check out aftermarket adj. rearsets. I got some off ebay Chineese Vortex knock offs that have been working great for a couple years now. I think I paid about 75$ for them. I love em.

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Old 09-18-2012, 08:46 AM   #29
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I did my very first track day in the intermediate group with 2-Fast, and I was fine. I was right at home, the pace was fine, I was able to make safe passes and comfortable being passed.

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Old 09-18-2012, 09:01 AM   #30
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Sounds like you were ready. Nice work!

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Old 09-18-2012, 02:33 PM   #31
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It didn't even occur to me to go to a first track and not start in the beginner group. It seemed like the only logical place to start. I figured if I got out there and found myself passing everybody, I could ask an instructor to follow me for a lap or two and make the determination if they thought I should bump up.

The first couple of times to the track I was in a new environment, and out of my element. I didn't want to feel like i was potentially in people's way. I didn't mind having to potentially get around people.

All that said, I have the most fun when I'm trying to keep up with a better rider. It just ups the game a little bit. I don't mean upping it so much that I would have to ride beyond my skill level, because I won't do that. I probably didn't articulate that very well, but I bet a lot of people know what I'm talking about.

I know one thing...

If somebody like Donny came up to me at a track day and tried to help me with some advice, I'd damn well listen and then try to work on what he was trying to help me with.

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Old 09-18-2012, 02:47 PM   #32
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The other annoying thing guys tend to do. Is because they're a "advanced" rider at one track, they automatically feel they can just jump right into the advance group at a track they've never been to before.

Fuck, its annoying when you're on the track and some d-bag is stinking up the place in the advance group because he rides "advanced" at another track.




Some of you need to look at the bigger picture. I do. When I go to tracks I've never been to before. I spend a couple sessions learning the track in the intermediate groups. There is a huge difference in line choices between someone who is on the slower end of the advance group and someone who is on the slower end and doesnt know the track. Combine that with anyone who might be on the track running fast advanced group paces....and you get trouble. That trouble is usually all the jack asses fault who's ego got in the way and couldnt just learn the track in teh intermediate group.

^^^^^that scenario also applies to the guys who think they were "just fine" in the intermediate group on their first day/sessions. It's nothing more than being selfish and ego driven. You're not seeing the guys behind you trying to figure out wtf you are doing, as you're trying to figure out wtf you're doing.

I personally would rather be the faster guy in the beginner/intermediate group learning the track before stepping up to the intermediate/advanced groups.

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Old 09-18-2012, 03:00 PM   #33
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I hope the thread hasn't deteriorated so that this comment is missed but, I totally agree with you. I ride in the front half or better of the A group. My first time at The Ridge I signed up in C and made sure I was first off the line. Worked great for all concerned.

If someone wants to move from A to B, I would suggest going out in the back of the group, too. You'll settle in to your place just fine and won't get scared by those folks that DO ride B .

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Old 09-19-2012, 08:53 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by dwschultzy View Post
The other annoying thing guys tend to do. Is because they're a "advanced" rider at one track, they automatically feel they can just jump right into the advance group at a track they've never been to before.

Fuck, its annoying when you're on the track and some d-bag is stinking up the place in the advance group because he rides "advanced" at another track.




Some of you need to look at the bigger picture. I do. When I go to tracks I've never been to before. I spend a couple sessions learning the track in the intermediate groups. There is a huge difference in line choices between someone who is on the slower end of the advance group and someone who is on the slower end and doesnt know the track. Combine that with anyone who might be on the track running fast advanced group paces....and you get trouble. That trouble is usually all the jack asses fault who's ego got in the way and couldnt just learn the track in teh intermediate group.

^^^^^that scenario also applies to the guys who think they were "just fine" in the intermediate group on their first day/sessions. It's nothing more than being selfish and ego driven. You're not seeing the guys behind you trying to figure out wtf you are doing, as you're trying to figure out wtf you're doing.

I personally would rather be the faster guy in the beginner/intermediate group learning the track before stepping up to the intermediate/advanced groups.
Tell me, what track day org do you instruct with, so I can know where I can go elsewhere to spend my money? For someone that talks about other peoples ego problems, I see a lot of chest puffing and a snotty condescending attitude...

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Old 09-19-2012, 08:59 AM   #35
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If I know someone can ride I am not going to tell them "You need to ride in the C-group your first time out, otherwise you will ruin everyone's good time!" That's flat stupid. I do tell people to take it easy the first couple laps to get an idea about the track, though. A lot of these Nazi track day orgs that we have in the PNW like to have a excess of passing rules, which makes riding in a slower group not much fun. Stick someone that's way above the average in a slower group and he will spend most of the time following people around waiting for a strait away so he can pass without getting bitched at by a guy out there getting his free track day.

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Old 09-19-2012, 09:05 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by racinjason44 View Post
If I know someone can ride I am not going to tell them "You need to ride in the C-group your first time out, otherwise you will ruin everyone's good time!" That's flat stupid.
, I've taken 4 guys to their first track day, and knowing they were all good riders, told them to sign up for B group. I even joined them and showed them around the track for a few sessions. Never had any problems.

It's kind of funny, the other two noobs I took that belonged in C and rode their first day in C crashed.

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Old 09-19-2012, 09:09 AM   #37
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C group scares me.

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Old 09-19-2012, 09:11 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by racinjason44 View Post
Tell me, what track day org do you instruct with, so I can know where I can go elsewhere to spend my money? For someone that talks about other peoples ego problems, I see a lot of chest puffing and a snotty condescending attitude...
My opinion has nothing to do with any specific organization. It's my opinion based on my experience. That's the fabulous thing about this nation. We can have differing opinions. Why are you getting so butthurt over someone's opinion?

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Old 09-19-2012, 09:14 AM   #39
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My opinion has nothing to do with any specific organization. It's my opinion based on my experience. That's the fabulous thing about this nation. We can have differing opinions. Why are you getting so butthurt over someone's opinion?
Well, you did call me "selfish and ego driven" for signing up in a B group track day my first time out. I suspect you expected me to pat you on the back and tell you I think you smell good for that?

It will really chap your ass to know that I signed up to race for the first time at PIR, having never done ANY track day there. Ironically it didn't bother the NRS instructors though...

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Old 09-19-2012, 09:22 AM   #40
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Well, you did call me "selfish and ego driven" for signing up in a B group track day my first time out. I suspect you expected me to pat you on the back and tell you I think you smell good for that?

It will really chap your ass to know that I signed up to race for the first time at PIR, having never done ANY track day there. Ironically it didn't bother the NRS instructors though...
I didn't specifically call you selfish and ego driven, but did direct it in a way that if one, like yourself, wanted to take personally......they would.


I thought we were talking about track days? Racing is a different story. You're not chapping my ass. I'm there to race. If you don't know the track, better chance I have with not finishing last.

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