School me on Downshifting - Page 2

TamiJean · 10-17-2012, 07:42 PM

@dan

Ya i have worked with todd a couple times. Im Andrew with the black r6 at the inland speed days.

the first day of the year i was practicing blipping exclusivly and got it down. Todd followed me and just said to let the slipper do its thing. the next track day i stopped blipping and just used the clutch and slipper and was able to get in turns faster but there are still turns where i manage to slip the rear wheel still. but watching some onboard videos of ama riders they still blip and its fast. just must need to practice some more.

Cleophus James · 10-17-2012, 08:59 PM

I like blipping in theory but Dan is right about when you are in a race and in a braking duel going into T2 or T1-2 (TRMP).

Blipping goes right out the window (bikes don't have windows?)

cord4530 · 10-17-2012, 10:11 PM

Hey Andrew. Todd is a great guy, and I would trust his judgement and recommendation for you. It's entirely possible that he saw that blipping the throttle was one too many things for you to worry about setting up for the corner. Getting your brake marker right, setting your speed, adjusting body position, and turning in at the right place are all things I would put as more important that blipping.

I still see plenty of AMA riders blipping on downshifts. I haven't got to play with the FlashTune on my newer R6 yet, so I don't yet know how that feels when you adjust the engine braking parameter. It is entirely possible that blipping will be less necessary depending on the setting. Still, my normal mode of operation is to blip, unless there is a compelling reason not to. But I'm not nearly as fast as some of the other guys, so their input may be worth more.
-Dan

ghostriderpdx · 10-17-2012, 10:56 PM

It's all about finding the sweet spot. The r6's clutch can take a beating so don't worry. Also I like never use the rear brake. Wheelie saves and panic straight line stops. That's it, rear tire is your enemy on turns. Plus you shouldnt be touching your brakes in a turn anyways. Figured that was a given but making sure.

shakazulu12 · 10-18-2012, 08:37 AM

Originally Posted by Cleophus James

At the STAR school we learned that downshifting is one of the most overlooked aspects of riding fast.

Forget blipping. When you are truly hard on the brakes, you won't be able to do it right. None of the really fast guys (AMA, SBK, GP, etc) blip.

.

My ears perked up a bit when he said that in the school. While I think he is right as far as economy of motion, and in fact, I'm actively working on perfecting the technique, there are still a TON of fast guys that are blipping. You don't see it in WSBK and Moto GP as much because they are using auto blippers. But watch Eslick or any of the DSB guys and you will see about a 50/50 mix on that. So far, I'm fine with it until I have to go into first gear. Can't seem to make that jump without blipping.

That said, watching Pridmore demonstrate how smooth and precise you can be without blipping was amazing. Really opened my eyes to how to properly enter a corner.

PeteN95 · 10-18-2012, 09:40 AM

Originally Posted by ghostriderpdx

Plus you shouldnt be touching your brakes in a turn anyways. Figured that was a given but making sure.

You have so much to learn...

ZREX MIKE · 10-18-2012, 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by ghostriderpdx

.............Plus you shouldnt be touching your brakes in a turn anyways. Figured that was a given but making sure.

Originally Posted by PeteN95

You have so much to learn...

Amazing how much brake you can use while turning.

fisherz28 · 10-18-2012, 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by ZREX MIKE

Amazing how much brake you can use while turning.

Weak! You've still got an inch before your slider touches the ground.

PeteN95 · 10-18-2012, 02:10 PM

Great shot, Mike, you rail the Ridge!

Originally Posted by ZREX MIKE

Amazing how much brake you can use while turning.

DullJack · 10-18-2012, 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by Cleophus James

At the STAR school we learned that downshifting is one of the most overlooked aspects of riding fast.

Forget blipping. When you are truly hard on the brakes, you won't be able to do it right. None of the really fast guys (AMA, SBK, GP, etc) blip.

Downshift pretty much right away. Bang Bang Bang. This eliminates the need to blip. If you brake first and then shift you have to blip. If you downshift at the same time you don't need to.

That's an interesting point. I have never needed to blip, but I always thought it was just a function of being on a twin...now that you point it out, I realize that I just instinctively brake and shift at the same time. Too bad it hasn't made me more than an average track rider.

ghostriderpdx · 10-18-2012, 03:13 PM

Originally Posted by PeteN95

You have so much to learn...

If you are referring to the art of trail braking, then I stand corrected for my statement to you. But in my defense, I was addressing this gentleman. Which had a downshifting question. I figure you understand what i'm trying to say... Trail braking is an advance track skill and I don't want a viewer to kill himself tonight going into a turn by Safeway. With respect intended, nice lean btw.

fastfoodfred · 10-18-2012, 06:02 PM

One of my buddies say you will never be fast without trail braking. I think he is correct. However, on the street, I mostly compression brake.

KevinD · 10-18-2012, 06:04 PM

Gee, Fred, I've seen you ride: I didn't think you even knew what the brakes are for!

KevinD

ZREX MIKE · 10-18-2012, 07:34 PM

Originally Posted by PeteN95

Great shot, Mike, you rail the Ridge!

Thanks Pete; look forward to dicin' it up with you again next year.

ZREX MIKE · 10-19-2012, 08:05 AM

Originally Posted by fastfoodfred

...............................However, on the street, I mostly compression brake.

I try to do that as well. How's that work for ya when you're on the RZ???

Twisties4me · 10-19-2012, 09:34 AM

Rev match is a better term than blip. For me its more of getting the rpm to where it will need to be before I let the clutch back out. While easing out the clutch and brake I am only making very very small throttle adjustments to match engine and wheel speed. Most the work has already done. Not really a blip. Think smooth and fine tuning as you ease your fingers out. Guess I let my finger tips move independent of my hand so I can use more or less brake while adjusting throttle either way.

Even with a slipper clutch you will need to have the throttle at this point sooner or later and begin a smooth roll on. Why not just put it where it will need to be sooner and let the slipper be a safety net.

I'm kinda old school though. Years and years of old clunky bikes with lots of compression braking. Driving old dump trucks where you must rev match in order to shift at all kinda beat it into me as well.

I don't really ever think about blips or rev matching. I just do it. I'm not sure I could even use a slipper clutch. hehe

Davidian · 10-19-2012, 02:44 PM

I actually snuck in a ride yesterday before it started dumping rain and I was thinking about this thread, so I started practicing a little while in 6th gear. I'd let off the throttle, clutch in, blip the throttle and clutch out. When I did it right, it worked just like driving my Z. So I practiced a little bit through out the ride and was started to get it down, not perfectly, but better than I had before. Now to get that down quick to be able to do it on the track, WHOLE different story. Just means practice, practice, practice!

For those of you more experienced at doing this, when you're letting the clutch out, do you just completely let it out, or do you let it out smoothly? I find that I can just let it out completely (like when driving my car) IF I do it right. However, I had a couple of bad downshifts while practicing that gave me a little tank slap (OUCH!).

shakazulu12 · 10-19-2012, 02:55 PM

Smoothly. Every bike I have ridden with a slipper clutch will still lurch pretty good if you just dump the clutch out on it at high enough revs.

Cleophus James · 10-20-2012, 08:41 AM

No blipping skills. If you take the school, be sure to do the 2 up ride. Dude has crazy smoothness. I was like "you can't go in this deep with two people on the bike OH SHIIIII ... oh, badass!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOax2ftgbNU

Davidian · 10-20-2012, 04:36 PM

Thanks for posting that vid man! So is he clutching in part way through some of those turns or is he just slowly letting out on the clutch? Just trying to gauge his technique.


10-17-2012, 07:42 PM	#21
TamiJean Licensed Joined: Sep 2009 From: Spokane, Wa I Ride: Yamaha	@dan Ya i have worked with todd a couple times. Im Andrew with the black r6 at the inland speed days. the first day of the year i was practicing blipping exclusivly and got it down. Todd followed me and just said to let the slipper do its thing. the next track day i stopped blipping and just used the clutch and slipper and was able to get in turns faster but there are still turns where i manage to slip the rear wheel still. but watching some onboard videos of ama riders they still blip and its fast. just must need to practice some more. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


10-17-2012, 08:59 PM	#22
Cleophus James Chicken Strips Joined: May 2008 From: Ross Ice Shelf I Ride: into town a-whompin an a-whoopin	I like blipping in theory but Dan is right about when you are in a race and in a braking duel going into T2 or T1-2 (TRMP). Blipping goes right out the window (bikes don't have windows?) __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


10-17-2012, 10:11 PM	#23
cord4530 Licensed Joined: Aug 2007 From: Moscow, ID I Ride: slow on fast bikes, and slow on slow bikes.	Hey Andrew. Todd is a great guy, and I would trust his judgement and recommendation for you. It's entirely possible that he saw that blipping the throttle was one too many things for you to worry about setting up for the corner. Getting your brake marker right, setting your speed, adjusting body position, and turning in at the right place are all things I would put as more important that blipping. I still see plenty of AMA riders blipping on downshifts. I haven't got to play with the FlashTune on my newer R6 yet, so I don't yet know how that feels when you adjust the engine braking parameter. It is entirely possible that blipping will be less necessary depending on the setting. Still, my normal mode of operation is to blip, unless there is a compelling reason not to. But I'm not nearly as fast as some of the other guys, so their input may be worth more. -Dan __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


10-17-2012, 10:56 PM	#24
ghostriderpdx Endorsed Joined: Jun 2012 From: Portland I Ride: R1 05	It's all about finding the sweet spot. The r6's clutch can take a beating so don't worry. Also I like never use the rear brake. Wheelie saves and panic straight line stops. That's it, rear tire is your enemy on turns. Plus you shouldnt be touching your brakes in a turn anyways. Figured that was a given but making sure. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


10-18-2012, 06:02 PM	#32
fastfoodfred Moto2 Champion Joined: Mar 2006 From: spokane, wa I Ride: 2008 SXV4.5 + 1985 RZ350 + 2010 YZ250F +	One of my buddies say you will never be fast without trail braking. I think he is correct. However, on the street, I mostly compression brake. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


10-18-2012, 06:04 PM	#33
KevinD Joined: Mar 2009 From: Spokane Valley I Ride: Suzuki Boulevard C90, Suzuki DRZ400E, My Wife's Scooter	Gee, Fred, I've seen you ride: I didn't think you even knew what the brakes are for! KevinD __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


10-19-2012, 09:34 AM	#36
Twisties4me Peg Dragger Joined: Aug 2006 From: Banks, Or. I Ride: U ride?	Rev match is a better term than blip. For me its more of getting the rpm to where it will need to be before I let the clutch back out. While easing out the clutch and brake I am only making very very small throttle adjustments to match engine and wheel speed. Most the work has already done. Not really a blip. Think smooth and fine tuning as you ease your fingers out. Guess I let my finger tips move independent of my hand so I can use more or less brake while adjusting throttle either way. Even with a slipper clutch you will need to have the throttle at this point sooner or later and begin a smooth roll on. Why not just put it where it will need to be sooner and let the slipper be a safety net. I'm kinda old school though. Years and years of old clunky bikes with lots of compression braking. Driving old dump trucks where you must rev match in order to shift at all kinda beat it into me as well. I don't really ever think about blips or rev matching. I just do it. I'm not sure I could even use a slipper clutch. hehe __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


10-19-2012, 02:44 PM	#37
Davidian Licensed Joined: Feb 2012 From: Tukwila I Ride: 2007 Ninja 650R	I actually snuck in a ride yesterday before it started dumping rain and I was thinking about this thread, so I started practicing a little while in 6th gear. I'd let off the throttle, clutch in, blip the throttle and clutch out. When I did it right, it worked just like driving my Z. So I practiced a little bit through out the ride and was started to get it down, not perfectly, but better than I had before. Now to get that down quick to be able to do it on the track, WHOLE different story. Just means practice, practice, practice! For those of you more experienced at doing this, when you're letting the clutch out, do you just completely let it out, or do you let it out smoothly? I find that I can just let it out completely (like when driving my car) IF I do it right. However, I had a couple of bad downshifts while practicing that gave me a little tank slap (OUCH!). __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


10-19-2012, 02:55 PM	#38
shakazulu12 Peg Dragger Joined: Sep 2007 From: Portland, OR I Ride: Melbs5150's momma	Smoothly. Every bike I have ridden with a slipper clutch will still lurch pretty good if you just dump the clutch out on it at high enough revs. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


10-20-2012, 04:36 PM	#40
Davidian Licensed Joined: Feb 2012 From: Tukwila I Ride: 2007 Ninja 650R	Thanks for posting that vid man! So is he clutching in part way through some of those turns or is he just slowly letting out on the clutch? Just trying to gauge his technique. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter

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