School me on Downshifting - Page 3

fastfoodfred · 10-20-2012, 06:04 PM

He is slowly letting the clutch out, manually doing the slipper clutch job.

residentcourt1 · 10-20-2012, 06:55 PM

[QUOTE=Cleophus James;2866602]At the STAR school we learned that downshifting is one of the most overlooked aspects of riding fast.
do it right. None of the really fast guys (AMA, SBK, GP, etc) blip.
Forget blipping. When you are truly hard on the brakes, you won't be able to

Downshift pretty much right away. Bang Bang Bang. This eliminates the need to blip. If you brake first and then shift you have to blip. If you downshift at the same time you don't need to.

I don't know how true this is...you can clearly see many of the pro's rev match during races. These guys have been blipping for a long time and will continue to. Eventually, blipping will probably be less and less practiced as technology like the slipper clutch make it not as necessary.

Originally Posted by cord4530

Hey Andrew. Todd is a great guy, and I would trust his judgement and recommendation for you. It's entirely possible that he saw that blipping the throttle was one too many things for you to worry about setting up for the corner. Getting your brake marker right, setting your speed, adjusting body position, and turning in at the right place are all things I would put as more important that blipping.

I still see plenty of AMA riders blipping on downshifts. I haven't got to play with the FlashTune on my newer R6 yet, so I don't yet know how that feels when you adjust the engine braking parameter. It is entirely possible that blipping will be less necessary depending on the setting. Still, my normal mode of operation is to blip, unless there is a compelling reason not to. But I'm not nearly as fast as some of the other guys, so their input may be worth more.
-Dan

I've talked to Todd about downshifting and rev matching. He doesn't blip much, he's mostly banging down gears.

Cleophus James · 10-20-2012, 10:10 PM

Could be. I was blindly repeating what Pridmore said, which I shouldn't have. To be even more clear, he did say that you blip in certain situations when you may be already low in the revs or when going down more than 3 gears at the end of long straight with a slow corner coming up because you can't backshift as fast as the brakes are dropping revs/speed. In that case though, the blips are still small.

Another thing that makes sense about early downshifting. Where do you want to catch your false neutral? Right at the start of your braking and downshifting or closer to the apex?

Davidian · 10-21-2012, 01:05 PM

So should I look into investing in a slipper clutch (if they even make them for my bike)? It seems pretty beneficial on the track from what I've seen/heard, but I don't see myself doing track days a whole lot due to expenses. Do any of you that have them use them on the street as well?

residentcourt1 · 10-21-2012, 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by Davidian

So should I look into investing in a slipper clutch (if they even make them for my bike)? It seems pretty beneficial on the track from what I've seen/heard, but I don't see myself doing track days a whole lot due to expenses. Do any of you that have them use them on the street as well?

Pointless on the street in my opinion. You're not trying to increase lap times on the street. Take the money you'd have spent on the slipper and use it on track fees. The track is so much better than any street riding .

fastfoodfred · 10-21-2012, 03:42 PM

in my experience, track days are a lot more affordable than tickets and lawyers. a lot.

Cleophus James · 10-21-2012, 04:46 PM

You don't need a slipper on the track either. Your left hand can be a pretty damn good slipper. I used to chatter the rear tire on corner entry all the time, but I don't anymore and I'm going a lot faster. (still not super fast, but faster than I was and faster than a lot of people with slippers)

I'd invest in track time, suspension and then more track time and then tires and then more track time and then more track time.

All of those will get you way more benefit than a slipper.

NoQuarter#121 · 10-21-2012, 04:48 PM

Riding is such a personal thing.
On something as this I would hate to say what you should or should not be doing.

I learned to blip/rev match the engine because I was racing 1000cc twins without a slipper.
I had to get it right into the very hard breaking zones or the bike would get unsettled.

However,
I am 6 seconds a lap faster now than then.

I set up my slippers to be very low drag.
I still blip, but its more due to habit than any real necessity.
The slippers work incredibly well.

Feeding slipping the clutch to control rear wheel traction is a slick and difficult skill.

Best to learn this on a dirtbike.

Davidian · 10-22-2012, 01:09 AM

Originally Posted by Cleophus James

You don't need a slipper on the track either. Your left hand can be a pretty damn good slipper. I used to chatter the rear tire on corner entry all the time, but I don't anymore and I'm going a lot faster. (still not super fast, but faster than I was and faster than a lot of people with slippers)

I'd invest in track time, suspension and then more track time and then tires and then more track time and then more track time.

All of those will get you way more benefit than a slipper.

Oh I know sir, I know. I've only got 1 riding season under my belt, so I'm full of questions.

Also, nice Blazing Saddles reference on your 'I ride' slogo. LOL

cord4530 · 10-22-2012, 07:21 AM

I think you may have missed the important message in Allister's response. You were just given the best excuse ever to go buy a dirtbike.

-Dan

Cleophus James · 10-22-2012, 11:06 AM

Yes. Go get dirtbike.

cord4530 · 10-22-2012, 11:26 AM

One of the best things I ever did to improve my track riding was to buy a big KTM enduro bike (or any street-legal dirtbike). There aren't a lot of trails near where I live, but there are hundreds of miles of nearly traffic-free gravel roads right out my back yard. Gravel and dirt offer little traction, so everything mistake you make is amplified. Sliding the rear out of corners on a dirt bike is suprisingly similar to sliding out of corners on asphalt. Same things are true on corner entry (unless you're always backing it in like a supermoto, or Eslick).

Biggest difference is that if you crash on the gravel/dirt it's usually at much lower speed (less chance of injury), and there is usually no damage to repair on the bike. Worst part about my experience was that the LC4 engine vibrated like a paint shaker, and ate up rear tires very quickly (sometimes as little as ~500 miles quickly). Still, it taught me a lot in a short amount of time, and cost very little compared to track time.
-Dan

RC51 · 10-22-2012, 02:31 PM

I guess I am one of those crazy people who just downshifts as they are braking. The RC has enough engine braking to throw your nuts into the tank, so it really helps slow the bike down. When I feel the rear start to wag as I let out the clutch, it's time to pull the clutch back in and take it a little slower on the downshifting.

After only riding the RC51 at the track, I don't know if I could ride something with a slipper clutch. The 250 of course didn't have any engine braking compared to the RC, but I was never really going that fast on the thing anyways.

Twisties4me · 10-25-2012, 11:43 AM

Get a dirt bike and rip around on some gravel roads. learn to slide it through turns with brakes, clutch, throttle. Also learn how to find or keep traction traction. Dirt is a great place to learn smooth. You can find the edge of traction with little risk. Get a cheap old thumper with lots of engine braking.

brianm · 11-14-2012, 02:14 PM

I agree with Alister (NoQuarter#121)...mostly. To blip or not to blip isn't very important. I personally don't blip. I ease the clutch. I don't like to rely on the slipper because I have more control of the stability of the bike during corner entry if I ease it into gear. The back tire is just barely touching the ground; why would you want to give it anything more to deal with? I like the video that was posted. If you watch it carefully you can see there are sections where he doesn't fully release the clutch until he's at the apex and accelerating out.

Blip if you want to; just keep the bike under control.


10-20-2012, 06:04 PM	#41
fastfoodfred Moto2 Champion Joined: Mar 2006 From: spokane, wa I Ride: 2008 SXV4.5 + 1985 RZ350 + 2010 YZ250F +	He is slowly letting the clutch out, manually doing the slipper clutch job. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


10-20-2012, 10:10 PM	#43
Cleophus James Chicken Strips Joined: May 2008 From: Ross Ice Shelf I Ride: into town a-whompin an a-whoopin	Could be. I was blindly repeating what Pridmore said, which I shouldn't have. To be even more clear, he did say that you blip in certain situations when you may be already low in the revs or when going down more than 3 gears at the end of long straight with a slow corner coming up because you can't backshift as fast as the brakes are dropping revs/speed. In that case though, the blips are still small. Another thing that makes sense about early downshifting. Where do you want to catch your false neutral? Right at the start of your braking and downshifting or closer to the apex? __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


10-21-2012, 01:05 PM	#44
Davidian Licensed Joined: Feb 2012 From: Tukwila, WA I Ride: 2007 Ninja 650R	So should I look into investing in a slipper clutch (if they even make them for my bike)? It seems pretty beneficial on the track from what I've seen/heard, but I don't see myself doing track days a whole lot due to expenses. Do any of you that have them use them on the street as well? __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


10-21-2012, 03:42 PM	#46
fastfoodfred Moto2 Champion Joined: Mar 2006 From: spokane, wa I Ride: 2008 SXV4.5 + 1985 RZ350 + 2010 YZ250F +	in my experience, track days are a lot more affordable than tickets and lawyers. a lot. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


10-21-2012, 04:46 PM	#47
Cleophus James Chicken Strips Joined: May 2008 From: Ross Ice Shelf I Ride: into town a-whompin an a-whoopin	You don't need a slipper on the track either. Your left hand can be a pretty damn good slipper. I used to chatter the rear tire on corner entry all the time, but I don't anymore and I'm going a lot faster. (still not super fast, but faster than I was and faster than a lot of people with slippers) I'd invest in track time, suspension and then more track time and then tires and then more track time and then more track time. All of those will get you way more benefit than a slipper. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


10-21-2012, 04:48 PM	#48
NoQuarter#121 Knee Dragger Joined: Sep 2007 From: 2nd star to the right and straight on 'til morning I Ride: on ice at 15F below zero. GO ICEHOLES!!!	Riding is such a personal thing. On something as this I would hate to say what you should or should not be doing. I learned to blip/rev match the engine because I was racing 1000cc twins without a slipper. I had to get it right into the very hard breaking zones or the bike would get unsettled. However, I am 6 seconds a lap faster now than then. I set up my slippers to be very low drag. I still blip, but its more due to habit than any real necessity. The slippers work incredibly well. Feeding slipping the clutch to control rear wheel traction is a slick and difficult skill. Best to learn this on a dirtbike. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


10-22-2012, 07:21 AM	#50
cord4530 Licensed Joined: Aug 2007 From: Moscow, ID I Ride: slow on fast bikes, and slow on slow bikes.	I think you may have missed the important message in Allister's response. You were just given the best excuse ever to go buy a dirtbike. -Dan __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


10-22-2012, 11:06 AM	#51
Cleophus James Chicken Strips Joined: May 2008 From: Ross Ice Shelf I Ride: into town a-whompin an a-whoopin	Yes. Go get dirtbike. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


10-22-2012, 11:26 AM	#52
cord4530 Licensed Joined: Aug 2007 From: Moscow, ID I Ride: slow on fast bikes, and slow on slow bikes.	One of the best things I ever did to improve my track riding was to buy a big KTM enduro bike (or any street-legal dirtbike). There aren't a lot of trails near where I live, but there are hundreds of miles of nearly traffic-free gravel roads right out my back yard. Gravel and dirt offer little traction, so everything mistake you make is amplified. Sliding the rear out of corners on a dirt bike is suprisingly similar to sliding out of corners on asphalt. Same things are true on corner entry (unless you're always backing it in like a supermoto, or Eslick). Biggest difference is that if you crash on the gravel/dirt it's usually at much lower speed (less chance of injury), and there is usually no damage to repair on the bike. Worst part about my experience was that the LC4 engine vibrated like a paint shaker, and ate up rear tires very quickly (sometimes as little as ~500 miles quickly). Still, it taught me a lot in a short amount of time, and cost very little compared to track time. -Dan __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


10-22-2012, 02:31 PM	#53
RC51 Streetfighter Joined: Mar 2008 From: Kingston I Ride: the short bus ....... with your mom in the back.	I guess I am one of those crazy people who just downshifts as they are braking. The RC has enough engine braking to throw your nuts into the tank, so it really helps slow the bike down. When I feel the rear start to wag as I let out the clutch, it's time to pull the clutch back in and take it a little slower on the downshifting. After only riding the RC51 at the track, I don't know if I could ride something with a slipper clutch. The 250 of course didn't have any engine braking compared to the RC, but I was never really going that fast on the thing anyways. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


10-25-2012, 11:43 AM	#54
Twisties4me Peg Dragger Joined: Aug 2006 From: Banks, Or. I Ride: U ride?	Get a dirt bike and rip around on some gravel roads. learn to slide it through turns with brakes, clutch, throttle. Also learn how to find or keep traction traction. Dirt is a great place to learn smooth. You can find the edge of traction with little risk. Get a cheap old thumper with lots of engine braking. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter


11-14-2012, 02:14 PM	#55
brianm Licensed Joined: Jan 2008 From: Seattle, wa	I agree with Alister (NoQuarter#121)...mostly. To blip or not to blip isn't very important. I personally don't blip. I ease the clutch. I don't like to rely on the slipper because I have more control of the stability of the bike during corner entry if I ease it into gear. The back tire is just barely touching the ground; why would you want to give it anything more to deal with? I like the video that was posted. If you watch it carefully you can see there are sections where he doesn't fully release the clutch until he's at the apex and accelerating out. Blip if you want to; just keep the bike under control. __________________ Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter

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