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Old 11-27-2012, 04:53 AM   #41
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So, I think I know what you are getting at. I make t5 a bit more of a turn than it has to be, I can straighten it out a bit, enter t6 more mid track, and make t6 a double apex, with most of my turning done mid-t6, hitting more or less where the white exit cone is on t6, upright and on the throttle much sooner. I have noted that is your line (I think) on your videos, and also that is what the Pridmore school told me to do. Am I correct?

Thanks much for replying. I gotta go to work.

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Old 11-27-2012, 08:28 AM   #42
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“ Quote:
Originally Posted by fattiremike View Post
So, I think I know what you are getting at. I make t5 a bit more of a turn than it has to be, I can straighten it out a bit, enter t6 more mid track, and make t6 a double apex, with most of my turning done mid-t6, hitting more or less where the white exit cone is on t6, upright and on the throttle much sooner. I have noted that is your line (I think) on your videos, and also that is what the Pridmore school told me to do. Am I correct?

Thanks much for replying. I gotta go to work.
You are absolutely correct regarding the optimum line.

Your turn 6 is the classic example showing the slowest part of the corner at or close to the beginning, but the max lean at the end. Ideally, your max lean and slowest parts need to happen at the same spot somewhere closer to the middle of the corner. There is no way you can get a hard early drive out of turn 6 when you are adding more lean angle at the end. So…. How do we fix this?

As you said….Turn 6 is a perfect corner to double apex.

First lets look at then entry to turn 6:

- After you exit turn 5 there is a little kink that doesn’t have an actual turn number associated with it. For me that kink is a bit of a right turn because I want to have my bike fairly close to the right side of the track as I enter turn 6.

- Compared to what you are doing now, you need to turn in a bit sooner for turn 6 but make less of a steering input, think slow gradual turn in where you are gradually adding lean angle all the way up to the slowest part of the turn vrs getting your knee down as soon as possible.

- Trail the front brake all the way up to the start of the slowest part of the turn.

- The slowest part of the turn should start somewhere closer to the end of the first 1/3 of the corner.

- Your eyes: After you make the initial steering input at the start of the turn, move your eyes up to the inside edge of the track so you can modulate steering inputs entering the turn. You are aiming to pass you knee over the grass on the inside of the track as you pass the first apex while still on the brakes. Then 2 seconds before you reach that first apex MOVE YOUR EYES up to the start of the slowest point of the turn. Your eyes should be searching for the spot on the track where you want to be fully off the brakes. The sooner you can see that spot, the more information you have to make adjustments in braking and steering if needed. Getting your eyes looking for that point deep into the corner will eliminate the feeling of the corner rushing at you; it makes it easier to trail the brake because you are not in a panic to get the braking done so soon…. It’s important to have a “destination” in mind for the exact spot on the track where you release the last 5% of front brake….and it’s not right at the beginning of the turn.

Other notes:
- The slowest part is probably going to be a bit closer to the outside of the track than you are used to.

- Your actual speed at the slowest part will probably be slower than you are going now, Think fast in, fast out, slow in the middle.


Above is my though process on how to enter turn 6…. We will get to what happens in the middle and end of the turn later. First though, any questions about the entry?

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Old 11-27-2012, 11:15 AM   #43
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Great stuff, Pat! I noticed while working the turn station there that a lot of people don't use all of the track when exiting T5. I like to roll on the throttle coming down out of T4 and slowly open it up through the exit of T5 running out toward the blue cone.

I also really like your double apex in T6. I have tried doing a long slowly decreasing late apex, but it is so hard to judge the entrance and hold a smooth radius. I think it is also a shorter distance with the double apex and early entry?

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Old 11-27-2012, 01:06 PM   #44
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“ Quote:
First though, any questions about the entry?
Nope. I think that I understand.

“ Quote:
The slowest part is probably going to be a bit closer to the outside of the track than you are used to.
And later too? I was riding this line with the Pridmore school, and it messed with my head for awhile. The corner is much "later and wider" than I would normally think it would be, if you are double apexing it.

Thanks. Excellent stuff.

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Old 11-27-2012, 02:38 PM   #45
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“ Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteN95 View Post
Great stuff, Pat! I noticed while working the turn station there that a lot of people don't use all of the track when exiting T5. I like to roll on the throttle coming down out of T4 and slowly open it up through the exit of T5 running out toward the blue cone.

I also really like your double apex in T6. I have tried doing a long slowly decreasing late apex, but it is so hard to judge the entrance and hold a smooth radius. I think it is also a shorter distance with the double apex and early entry?
Hmmmm, not sure about the distance, good question.... so many variables depending on exactly what path you take through the corner. Bottom line though is that the shortest way is not always the fastest way.

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Old 11-27-2012, 02:44 PM   #46
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“ Quote:
Originally Posted by fattiremike View Post
Nope. I think that I understand.



And later too? I was riding this line with the Pridmore school, and it messed with my head for awhile. The corner is much "later and wider" than I would normally think it would be, if you are double apexing it.

Thanks. Excellent stuff.
Yes!

To be specific.... in a double apex turn, the SLOWEST part of the corner is going to be later and wider than you are used to. I am trying to be careful here that the message is not to start the initial turn in point later and wider. Your initial turn in is actually going to be a bit sooner, but using less steering input so you have less lean angle than you normally would entering the corner, then you let the bike drift out wide after you pass the entry apex. This is necessary for trailbraking as it allows you to minimize your lean angle till you get deeper into the turn. It's not possible to trail brake if you slam your knee on the ground very early in the corner.

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Last edited by dammyneckhurts; 11-27-2012 at 02:51 PM..
 
Old 11-27-2012, 06:00 PM   #47
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Pat?
I'm intrigued by your approach to attacking corners.
Maybe not what I do now, but I'm a student of riding and I like looking at the skill from a different perspectives.
I'm gonna try it and see if it works for me.
Cant hurt, I suck.

As far as tires for a track day guy or beginning racer?

UK N-Tech Dunlops are still the longest lasting stickiest tires available.
This I know.
There are a couple of really fast local club guys riding Pirellis doing well, but I still think the D's are superior for drive grip and longevity.

You can turn respectable lap times on tires that are really, really worn out.

UK N-Tech take offs are the shiznit, and I have a few left if you are interested.

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Old 11-27-2012, 06:21 PM   #48
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“ Quote:
Yes!

To be specific.... in a double apex turn, the SLOWEST part of the corner is going to be later and wider than you are used to. I am trying to be careful here that the message is not to start the initial turn in point later and wider. Your initial turn in is actually going to be a bit sooner, but using less steering input so you have less lean angle than you normally would entering the corner, then you let the bike drift out wide after you pass the entry apex. This is necessary for trailbraking as it allows you to minimize your lean angle till you get deeper into the turn. It's not possible to trail brake if you slam your knee on the ground very early in the corner.
I got it. I totally understand.
____________________________

Ya know, you really need to start a track-day school! Really! Maybe an online track-day school! I doubt if that has been done before!

Not to get ahead of the tour, but I thought that I would throw in a screenshot of the previously posted lap, and the "new" lines that the Pridmore school taught. I am a member of the Washington National Guard, and I really scored some personalized coaching on the Pridmore Guard day. I had some enlightening moments that day, but that is only because they gave me some one-on-one coaching. I guess I am just hard-headed! Anyway, the split times are slower, but I was working on line placement, braking points, etc. I am curious as to whether you think the latter line (red) is a better line to ride.

Blue line: Before Pridmore school. Red line: After Pridmore school. Track Time

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Old 11-27-2012, 06:42 PM   #49
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“ Quote:
Originally Posted by NoQuarter#121 View Post
Pat?

As far as tires for a track day guy or beginning racer?

UK N-Tech Dunlops are still the longest lasting stickiest tires available.
This I know.
There are a couple of really fast local club guys riding Pirellis doing well, but I still think the D's are superior for drive grip and longevity.

You can turn respectable lap times on tires that are really, really worn out.

UK N-Tech take offs are the shiznit, and I have a few left if you are interested.
What he said

And ya,,,, that's me..... I am always looking for more takeoffs if the price is right. I have a few sets of softs so in the spring I will be looking for 6838 or 6680.

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Old 11-27-2012, 07:04 PM   #50
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Fattiremike: Too bad there isnt a way to get the actual track map included in the data showing apexes etc.

If you look at turns 5 and 6 you can see the red line is much better at the end of the turn. I say better because in the red line your turn radius does not get tighter near the end of the corner like it does in the blue line.

For turn 3 the red line is wayyyyyy better. In the red line you are positioning the bike more the left side of the track in turn 2, then doing more of your direction change before cresting the top of the hill for turn 3... this is a good thing. In the blue line you can see a much later direction change for turn 3, and although we canít see the track layout I think itís a safe bet that you were adding lean angle as, or after you crested the top of the hill. This is exactly why there are so many crashes in turn 3.... There are a lot of things going against you in turn 3 so itís important to get your direction change done early.

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Old 11-27-2012, 10:11 PM   #51
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dWhat's the latest fashion with t2 at Pacific, double-apex or classic?

I've been paying attention at what I could notice WSBK and WSS guys do and I think what Pat is preaching is exactly what they do. Especially if you catch some of those moving inside the corner cams with wide angle that they have sometimes. They go surprisingly slow mid-corner.

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Old 11-27-2012, 10:21 PM   #52
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This entire thread has so little to do with tires and so much to do with rider......

as do all tire threads....

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Old 11-28-2012, 05:44 AM   #53
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“ Quote:
Originally Posted by Essvar View Post
This entire thread has so little to do with tires and so much to do with rider......

as do all tire threads....
You must be bored as hell to be replying to a tire thread on PNW.

How is it going buddy? While cleaning the garage the other day, I came across a few Bridgestone banners. Brought back some memories!

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Old 11-28-2012, 05:59 AM   #54
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“ Quote:
Originally Posted by TRAIL BOSS View Post
Unless you're riding on dirt, gravel or some other soft surface, this is false. Grooves, siping and void space in general means less rubber in contact with the pavement. That means less traction.

The Angels are great tires... Just don't make the mistake of believing that the siping adds traction to dry pavement.
I've heard that but keep seeing in my mind during a slide the edge of the grooves/siping catching on the tiny differences in the pavement. I need the extra siping up here in the northwet anyway lol!


Great thread!!! I'm STILL working on not going into corners hot and having to regulate my speed late... aaargh!!!

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Old 11-28-2012, 06:17 AM   #55
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“ Quote:
Originally Posted by LivnLife4Fun View Post
I've heard that but keep seeing in my mind during a slide the edge of the grooves/siping catching on the tiny differences in the pavement.
Ughhh. Dead air space doesn't catch on anything... It's rubber that catches. More rubber = more traction...

Now for standard road worthiness if you plan on using a bike as a every day mode of transportation, then by all means, you need some sort of tread to displace water in the wet.

But for dry pavement, the more rubber you have in contact with it, the more traction you have.

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Old 11-28-2012, 06:28 AM   #56
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“ Quote:
Originally Posted by Mic View Post
Ughhh. Dead air space doesn't catch on anything... It's rubber that catches. More rubber = more traction...

.

I'm talking about the EDGES of the groove/siping catching, not the dead space in between............ I get it, I get it, I'm not saying it IS!

but just wait, the tire scientists will change their opinions on this shortly, lol!!!

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Old 11-28-2012, 01:40 PM   #57
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“ Quote:
Originally Posted by LivnLife4Fun View Post
I'm talking about the EDGES of the groove/siping catching, not the dead space in between............ I get it, I get it, I'm not saying it IS!

but just wait, the tire scientists will change their opinions on this shortly, lol!!!
Nope. Still incorrect. In the dry, the most grip would be from a soft compound slick.

In the wet, the siping channels the water away. Edges have nothing to do with it.


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire

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Old 11-28-2012, 02:29 PM   #58
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You're trying to put 2 different aspects of physics together.

If you're in soft ground, you want tread patterns to push yourself out. If you're in wet areas, you want tread to allow water to move through them so that rubber can contact the ground.

If you're on dry pavement, you want the most rubber to hold the tire to the ground.

Put your fingers straight, angle your hand 45 degrees, and push it along the top of a table or flat hard surface.

It slides along the surface easily. If you leave your hand flat and try to slide it along the same surface, it has much more resistance.

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Old 11-28-2012, 09:42 PM   #59
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“ Quote:
Originally Posted by dammyneckhurts View Post
You are absolutely correct regarding the optimum line.



Above is my though process on how to enter turn 6Ö. We will get to what happens in the middle and end of the turn later. First though, any questions about the entry?
Now that I think about it, that's exactly what I'm doing without thinking about it.
I started apexing turn 6 early, but I would brake late so I would still be on the brakes while my knee was in the dirt. As I started going faster I would let go of the brakes much later into the corner i.e as I was going wide in the middle of the corner as apposed to the apex early in the corner. You go slower in but that line lets you pick up the throttle and the bike much early to go faster out.

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Old 11-29-2012, 08:11 AM   #60
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“ Quote:
Too bad there isnt a way to get the actual track map included in the data showing apexes etc.
Yeah, I know. I have tried to photoshop the laps over photos of the track, but I am not skilled enough to do it. Next season, I want to do a couple of laps around the inside/outside edges of the track. That way, I would be able to know where exactly on the track I am. Thanks for the replies.

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Anyone have any experience with the KR448 & KR449 USA Made N-Tec Slicks?

http://dunlopracing.com/tires-produc...-n-tec-slicks/

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