Dynamicfire

I alway fight my own battles then again I am a Law Student!

pjd

Edit: Tom Ellington goes into Lewis County for $350. Sending him my paperwork, will post back experience on how it goes. Have heard good things about him.

Sticks n Stones

Jeez guys save your money and use the techniques shown in CaseDismissed at www.beatmyspeedingticket.com . I have used them 3 times to great success. I got it from a friend who owns a locksmith company who does A.A.A. At last count his guys have gotten out of over 60----yes SIXTY--- tickets using these tactics. Really basic and easy-to-use. He evens scripts what exactly to say on printable notes to use in court. It's $30 bucks but if you want I got no prob emailing any PNW rider a copy of it to use or spend the $$ for your own. I recommend peruse mine first before spending any money regardless. Good luck tracy.l.perman2@boeing.com

sunofnun

he did a great job for me as well (neg2 dismissed)

sunofnun

I host some info on beating tickets on your own


http://www.miahdesign.com/ticket.htm


--------------------

Fighting a Traffic Ticket in Washington State
So you've gotten a speeding ticket...

You may have been tagged incorrectly, not speeding, or you may have been flying along at substantially over the limit. Either way, the law doesn't care and the process is the same:

* Yes officer. No officer. Thank you, officer.
* <grumble mumble harrumph!>
* Pay the fine

There is another choice. Most people simple pay the fine, accept the insurance hit, and try to avoid getting tagged again. The ratio fighting is, according to most sources, less than 1%. But fighting can be useful, for many reasons, which I'll get to in a moment.

**UPDATE**
If you want to fight the ticket, keep reading... IF YOU JUST WANT A LAWYER.. I got tired of looking on all the message boards I know to find a lawyer.. if you know of a good one that has personally helped you, send me a mail.
Here is the huge list that I have been compiling WASHINGTON LAWYERS
**end update**

This page is designed to help you fight a ticket, or at least decide if you wish to. My motives are pure - I am not a chronic speeder, but due to insufficient available information, I lost a case that legally I should have won, due to the authorities not being nearly as concerned with justice as with either their quotas or the resulting revenue.

Because of this unfortunate but enlightening event, I've put what I've learned into this web page. If you want to fight a ticket, this will give you more information up front than I had until after the ruling.

As a patriotic American, I feel it is my responsibility to fight for truth and justice. When our system becomes corrupt, as our traffic enforcement in Washington has, and when the purpose moves away from protection and safety, towards revenue enhancement, as this one has done, ALL patriotic Americans have the duty to fight the system.

There aren't many ways to do this. We don't get to vote on the priorities of the Washington State Patrol (aka "revenuers"), nor do we have a way to exact retribution from those officers who knowingly lie, and even sign sworn oaths on those lies. The local governments don't want to change things because traffic revenue is a large source of income. What we can do is start fighting traffic tickets. All traffic tickets. With a little luck, eventually we would at least reduce the effective income from these tickets to the point where they are no longer a prime source of revenue, due to the costs of the challenges.

So that is why I wrote this page: Because the system is corrupt and it is based on revenue, and only by costing it revenue will we be able to change it.

That, therefore, is the first reason to fight a ticket: because it is the right thing to do, the American thing to do. However, there are other reasons:

* The judges often reduce the fine even if they find you guilty
* If you do it right (and this page will help), you may win and save the fine entirely
* If you win, you also save the increased cost of your insurance

One last note before we dive in: Most cops are humans. Through-out this page I refer to the fact that they lie with impunity. I have seen them do this many times (not just in traffic cases), and the system is set up to facilitate it and encourage it rather than to call them on it. The two are not mutually exclusive. An officer can be a good guy around his friends and home, and yet see the world through a view that, from our perspective, looks like a twisted power-trip when in uniform. My animosity is towards officers that lie, and towards a system as corrupt in both purpose and execution as ours. Since that was what caused this page, it isn't very balanced, so please consider...

The police are our bully-boys against crime. They have an emotionally tough job, because some of their contacts (i.e. people they come into contact with) will try to hurt them, or will be verbally abusive. On top of this, nobody is ever happy to get a ticket. Lastly, they are attacked for being strict on good people, and also for letting criminals free, but neither group has identifying tattoos on their foreheads and Bellevue's criminal punk might be CapHill's shining upstanding citizen. So when they take short-cuts through the system in the interest of expediency, it's with a set of values that we can't even see, because we can't possibly walk a mile in their shoes.

So, for the record, I am not attacking cops here. I am attacking some of their actions, the shortcuts for expediency that shortcut justice in favor of increased ticket revenue, and trying to help people rectify the results.

Contents

* Preparing to Fight
o Process
o Important Data
o The Plea
o Preliminary Paperwork
o Requesting Discovery
o Basic Technicalities
+ The Sworn Statement
+ The Affidavit
* Challenging Laser's accuracy
* If you lose...
* Hiring a good lawyer
* How to correspond with the court

Preparing to fight
There are some two approaches you can take:

* Hire a lawyer
* Defend yourself

Hiring a lawyer is probably your best bet, in a larger city such as Seattle or Vancouver. The best lawyers will get you off on a technicality almost routinely. However, it will probably cost you around $300, which may be a bit rich for your budget. Additionally, if the ticket was not written in King or Clark counties, the cost of travel for a good lawyer will be prohibitive, and the lawyers you will find in the other cities tend to specialize in more serious cases. This means it will cost you more, if you can even find a competent lawyer, and that they probably will not know the same technicalities. So cost or location may force you to defend yourself.

If you choose to defend yourself, the next problem is getting enough information to do it successfully. One source of information is the NMA (National Motorists Association), but they are a national organization not based on the West Coast. In my recent experience (November '97), NMA information is not useful for fighting a ticket in Washington state.

Regardless of that, you may wish to rent the NMA legal defense kit. I did so, but it was not sufficiently helpful (again, they aren't in Washington). Even if you don't rent it, you should join the NMA, as they are fighting for reasonable speed laws. With our support, they could be the NRA for drivers.

Either with or without the NMA kit, your best bet is a technicality. The judges serve as a rubber stamp for tickets (even against some technicalities, as I learned), and are not going to believe you over a cop's statement. This web page may help you prepare to fight on technicalities.

Preparing to fight
First some terms:
IRLJ
Infraction Rules for Courts of Limited Jurisdiction (Traffic Court, for this purpose)
Discovery
A request for evidence that will be used against you. You have the right to this, but you must know to ask for it, and, for maximum protection, what specifically to ask for.
subpoena
A request for witness (in this case, the officer) to appear in court. If the prosecution has been subpoenaed and does not appear, there is no case. If you do not subpoena the officer, in Washington state, a sworn affidavit which can not be cross-examined can be submitted in place.
SMD
Speed Measuring Device. This applies to both radar and laser guns.
Important Data

* The law enforcement officer (aka revenuer) will not show unless subpoenaed.
* The officer will submit a sworn statement in an affidavit, if not subpoenaed. This has the strength of a personal appearance, without the opportunity to be cross-examined.
* Officers are paid for their court time. He will be there if subpoenaed. (Perhaps not, but the odds are.)
* In Washington, laser and radar have judicial notice. If you do not explicitly request an expert testify on those devices, you can not challenge it in court.

Step 1 - The Plea
The first thing you need to do is request a trial. Note that you have three options:
No Contest Guilty - you get the point and the fine, but don't have to go to court.
Guilty with Explanation Guilty - You get a point (regardless of the circumstances), but get to explain why. You may get a reduced fine.
Not Guilty This is the only way to avoid a conviction on your driving record

There's really no point in pleading Guilty with Explanation. You waste time in court and it's not going to buy you anything. Even a technicality won't save your record with this plea.

So step #1 is: Plead Not Guilty. In Washington, you have 15 days to do this and send it in.

Step 2 - Preliminary Paperwork
Request for Discovery
The most important part of your paperwork is the Discovery Request. Even if this is phrased in a manner consistent with the law (i.e. "requesting discovery"), the judge may throw out your request for submission of any evidence not turned over if you weren't explicit enough. (This is what happened to me. Legally, I met exactly the letter of the law, but the judge considered suppression extreme given the request, disregarding the IRLJ rules.)

A good form for your discovery request may be:
To: XXXX County District Court

From: {Your full name and address}

Re: {Ticket/case number - i.e. WSP 000000}

I am requesting full discovery for the above case, including:

* The front and back of the ticket
* The full witness list
* All sworn affidavits
* All other evidence to be used by the prosecution

{your signature}
I can't guarantee that this will avoid the problem I ran into, but it should have a better shot than my less-specific (but still legally binding) request did.

Send this request in at least 14 days before the trial date.

Subpoena
If you choose to subpoena the officer (and there is plenty of good reason to do that, to allow you to cross-examine a human rather than having to defer to a perjury-ridden falsehood-filled affidavit), the necessary rules are, from IRLJ Rule 3.1(a):

(a) Subpoena. The defendant and the plaintiff may subpoena witnesses
necessary for the presentation of their respective cases. Witnesses should
be served at least 7 days before the hearing. The subpoena may be issued by
a judge, court commissioner, or clerk of the court or by a party's lawyer.
If a party's lawyer issues a subpoena, a copy shall be filed with the
court. A subpoena may be directed for service within their jurisdiction to
the sheriff of any county or any peace officer of any municipality in the
state in which the witness may be or it may be served as provided in CR
45(c), or it may be served by first-class mail, postage prepaid, sent to
the witnesses' last known address. Service by mail shall be deemed complete
upon the third day following the day upon which the subpoena was placed in
the mail. If the subpoena is for a witness outside the county, a judge must
approve of the subpoena.

There are other items you may wish to request or subpoena, such as:

* The officer's logbook. From this you can determine:
o Did the officer record having calibrated the SMD?
o Was the previous ticket at the same speed? (i.e. might he have failed to clear the unit?)
o Do the notes in the logbook match the details on the ticket?
* A training manual for the SMD (laser or radar)
* The dates and locations of the officer's SMD training (for challenging on currency)
* Maintanence, inspection, and repair records for the SMD unit in question

In short, you can request, by these two methods, pretty much anything that might be pertinent to the case. It doesn't cost you anything, and you might find something useful in it.

Step 3 - Check for technicalities
The WSP is pretty good at avoiding these pitfalls, but there are some things that can be an almost automatic dismissal:

* The ticket was not filed with-in two working days
* The court date was not set within 90 days of the notice of infraction
* The proper items were not sent to you or documented in the discovery

To check the first, call the courthouse and request the filing date. Make certain that it is filing date, and not the ticket or violation date, that is reported.

If the filing date is more than 5 business days after the issuance of the ticket, then IRLJ Rule 2.2(d) applies, which says:

When a notice of infraction has been issued, the
notice shall be filed with a court having jurisdiction over the infraction
or with a violations bureau subject to such courts supervision. The notice
must be filed within 48 hours after issuance of the notice, excluding
Saturdays, Sundays, and holidays. A notice of infraction not filed within
the time limits of this section may be dismissed without prejudice.

This can be found online at http://www.wa.gov/courts/rules/state/irlj/irlj006.txt.

If you have followed the advice from above on how to request discovery, the following may be of some use to you, from IRLJ Rule 3.1:

(b) Discovery. Upon written demand of the defendant at least 14 days
before a contested hearing, the plaintiff's lawyer shall at least 7 days
before the hearing provide the defendant or defendant's lawyer with a list
of the witnesses the plaintiff intends to call at the hearing and a copy of
the citing officer's sworn statement if it will be offered into evidence at
the hearing. ...

For these purposes, affidavits and witnesses are largely interchangeable. If you request the affidavits and the witness list, anybody/thing not mentioned in the discovery sent to you (or sent in the timeframe dictated) should be excluded from evidence, at which point you may be able to request dismissal for lack of evidence.

I specified should, though, because judges take discretion that the law may not specifically give them. A judge may have all the facts laid out right in front of him and still refuse to go their way. Although this is patently unfair and in fact is, in my opinion, a big reason why respect for law enforcement and the judiciary has declined so severely recently, it is pretty much what was intended, to allow for special circumstances. Unfortunately, your judge for your traffic infraction is likely to consider his duty to be to support revenue enhancement, not truth and justice.

Note that even if your court date is more than three months after the ticket was issued, the prosecution will often wait to the last day before sending out the affidavit. If it fails to get to you or is late, the judge should exclude the evidence, but may ignore the written law (in as much as the judge sets the law anyhow) and merely offer you a continuance.

The sworn statement
If you do not subpoena the officer, it will be you against a sworn statement. This sworn statement will, if it was the WSP, shoot down all the likely holes. The one presented against me included:

* Calibrations before and after shift
* Location of the cop (which was actually a lie - the officer had said something else verbally when writing the ticket. Remember - if he doesn't show, you can't cross-examine him.)
* Training information
* Reported distance and visually-discerned distance. (Again, these will agree with each-other, but not necessarily with what the officer said at the scene.)

In short, without cross-examination, the officer can and absolutely will lie with impunity, even in a written statement.

The WSP form for the laser sworn statement looks like this. The officer writes his lies in on the underlines. Text in braces is also filled in appropriately.

Of course, there is a different, but similar, form for other county courts.

DISTRICT COURT OF WASHINGTON FOR COWLITZ COUNTY

STATE OF WASHINGTON, )
) No: {docket # goes here}
Plaintiff )
) LASER SPEED MEASURING DEVICE
v. ) AFFIDAVIT OF OFFICER
{def.name} Defendant ) Re: ISSUANCE OF NOTICE OF
) INFRACTION
___________________________)

STATE OF WASHINGTON )
) ss.
COUNTY OF COWLITZ )



I, ____________________, Being first duly sworn
upon oath, deposes and says:

That I am an officer with the Washington State Patrol and have
been for the past ____ years. That on the ____ day of ______,
19___, at approximately ______ o' clock A.M., while in my official
capacity and within the boundaries of Cowlitz County I contacted
________________, the defendant herein.

I was operating a LASER SMD (speed measuring device) at
___________, mile post __, Cowlitz County. I observed the
defendant's vehicle ___ bound at a speed which appeared to be in
excess of the posted speed limit, ___mph. The defendant's speed
was visually estimated at ___mph. The defendant's vehicle was
___receding/____approaching in Lane number ___. The LASER SMD
showed a visual display of ___ mph at a distance of ____ feet.

The device number of the LASER SMD is _____. The LASER SMD was
used stationary. The unit was checked at the beginning and end of
my shift and the unit was found to be in proper working order. On
the day the above mentioned speed was obtained on the Def. the
Laser SMD's accuracy was checked by the use of three tests: (1)
internal self diagnostic test, (2) scope alignment test and (3) the
fixed distance/zero velocity test at _____feet both prior to the
beginning and end of my shift. At the beginning and end of the
shift I verified the accuracy of the above instrument by using it
to measure a predetermined distance, and it was operating
accurately at both times. I have been trained in the operation of
the LASER SMD by the Washington State Patrol and I am a qualified
operator of the unit.

Next page:


Upon contacting the Defendant, the Defendant made the
following statements:
{anything you said that stood out}



Additional notes pertinent to the stop.

{various lies if they bother}


I CERTIFY OR DECLARE UNDER PENALTY OF PERJURY UNDER THE LAWS
OF THE STATE OF WASHINGTON THAT THE FOREGOING IS TRUE AND CORRECT.

________________________


That's the "affidavit". As you can see, the officer doesn't have to remember a thing, or hew to a certain process, as long as he's willing to sign this document. You can have iron-tight open-and-shut evidence that the contents of this oath are lies, but since he's not in the room to cross-examine, the lies stand and the judge will (not may - the judge is part of the corrupt revenuing system) accept the officer's lies over your demonstrated proof.

Your only chance against these lies is to subpoena the officer. Do it.

Note that most of the requirements for legality - the calibrations, position, and such, are hard-coded in the form-oath. In other words, the cop merely signs this, regardless of the truth or procedure, as if they were his words. In court, if he reads from such a set, you may object that he is reading from his notes, at which point the judge may tell him to rely on his recollection.

Note that all data-entry redundancies were eliminated too... evidently the cops can't even be taught to lie consistently, and instead must be worked around with legalese.

If you subpoena him, I suggest you also request his logbook and examine it for references to these tests before the trial. Although he may have covered himself in it, if he didn't, you have an opening.

SMD Certification
Laser has judicial notice in Washington, which means that you can not challenge their reliability in court without notifying the prosecution that you intend to do that. For the most part, this is a battle that should be left to those with expertise and deep pockets, because expert witnesses are expensive and these cases will drag on. However, if you wish to look in this direction, here is the relevant code:

Rule 6.6
Speed Measuring Device: Design and Construction Certification

(a) In General. This rule applies only to contested hearings in traffic
infraction cases.

(b) Certificate; Form. In the absence of proof of a request to produce
an electronic speed measuring device (SMD) expert served on the prosecuting
authority and filed with the clerk of the court at least 30 days prior to
trial or such lesser time as the court deems proper, a certificate in
substantially the following form is admissible in lieu of an expert witness
in any court proceeding in which the design and construction of an
electronic speed measuring device (SMD) is an issue:

CERTIFICATION CONCERNING DESIGN AND CONSTRUCTION
OF ELECTRONIC SPEED MEASURING DEVICES

I, ____________________ do certify under penalty of perjury as follows:

I am employed with _______________ as a _______________. I have been
employed in such a capacity for _______________ years and hold the rank of
_________________. Part of my duties include supervising the purchase,
maintenance, and repair of all electronic speed measuring devices (SMD's)
used by my agency.

This agency currently uses the following SMD's:
(List all SMD's used and their manufacturers.)
I have the following qualifications with respect to the above stated SMD's:
(List all degrees held and any special schooling regarding
the SMD's listed above.)

Our agency maintains manuals for all of the above stated SMD's. I am
personally familiar with those manuals and how each of the SMD's are
designed and operated. All initial testing of the SMD's was performed under
my direction. The units were evaluated to meet or exceed existing
performance standards. Our agency maintains a testing and certification
program. This program requires:
(State the program in detail.)

Based upon my education, training, and experience and my knowledge of
the SMD's listed above, it is my opinion that each of these pieces of
equipment is so designed and constructed as to accurately employ the
Doppler effect in such a manner that it will give accurate measurements of
the speed of motor vehicles when properly calibrated and operated by a
trained operator.
___________________________________
(Signature)
Dated: ____________________________

(c) Continuance. The court at the time of the formal hearing shall hear
testimony concerning the infraction and, if necessary, may continue the
proceedings for the purpose of obtaining evidence concerning an electronic
speed measuring device and the certification thereof. If, at the time it is
supplied, the evidence is insufficient, a motion to suppress the readings
of such device shall be granted.

Adopted as JTIR 94 Wn.2d 1165 effective January 1, 1981
Amended 112 Wn.2d 1147 effective September 1, 1989
Changed from JTIR to IRLJ 119 Wn.2d 1233 effective September 1, 1992
Amended 130 Wn.2d 1107 effective September 1, 1997


If You Lose
Losing isn't terribly traumatic. Yes, you'll have to pay the fine and get a point on your insurance. On the bright side, the assessed fine will often be less than the standard penalty, and you have the right to appeal. Of course, you're already out the time you put into the case, but if you wish, here is what you need to know:

You will be given the following notice to sign upon the judgement:

TO THE DEFENDANT:

You have the right to appeal this court's decision to the
Superior Court. You must file a written Notice of
Appeal with the District Court Clerk within 30-days from today.
You must also serve a copy of your Notice of Appeal on the
Prosecuting Attorney or City Attorney.

The District Court Clerk will give you a Notice of Appeal form
at your request.

If you do not file your Notice of Appeal within the time
allowed by law, you lose your right to appeal.

I have received a copy
of this Notice of Right
to Appeal:

Where you take it from here is entirely up to you.

Hiring a lawyer
There are good lawyers who specialize in traffic cases. Most of these deal primarily with serious cases - those where alcohol or excessive speed were involved or where a ticket conviction could result in license suspension. If you have such a case, do not even consider defending it yourself... and expect to pay at least $500 for your defense.

However, if you're just fighting the points, in a proper city you can hire a good lawyer for $300 or less. Yes, this is more than the ticket, but it's less than the ticket plus insurances increases.

Some recommended lawyers in Seattle included:

**UPDATE**
Here is the huge list that I have been compiling WASHINGTON LAWYERS
**end update**

These are listed in the order of my confidence in them. The Mucklestones are spoken of quite highly, and I'm told that Bill Gates uses William Quie (and that he costs less), but I've used Stephen Lotzgar myself. Unfortunately I was unable to find a lawyer at a reasonable rate in Kelso. I did find an unreliable one, but winning lawyers there are harder to find.

Interviewing your lawyer
A good lawyer will talk to you about your case, and will have some tricks on technicalities. Typically, on radar at least, the issue of your guilt should be moot. (It's a lot harder for you to do this.)

Ask about their success rate, for laser, radar, etc.

Court Correspondence
The court will keep on-file not only all correspondence (i.e. pleas, requests for discovery, requests for continuance) but also the envelopes these came in. The judge will have all of this handy when you approach the bench in court. Therefore, the following steps are essential, both to prove that you weren't at fault should they fail to receive your correspondence and to prove that they were at fault (and therefore the case should be dismissed) if they failed to respond or process appropriately.

1. Make copies of all of your correspondence. This includes:
* The ticket (both sides) with the plea
* Request for Discovery
* Any additional requests
2. Send everything Return Receipt Requested from the post office
3. Send everything Certified

Sending certified gives you a receipt and tracking number. This provides proof that you sent something. Sending Return-Receipt provides proof that they got it. The odds of something being misfiled are small, but not small enough to risk it.

Lzzybeth

^Dang, thanks sunofnun!!

The Turk

i used Mitch Greene before and i wasn't happy.

Flying Duck

Not a regular here but I lurk occasionally.

Got tagged by a trooper coming around a corner down in Pacific County.

I know you're not supposed to say anything but it happened quickly and honestly thought he'd just make sure I had an MC endorsement and let me go with a talking to as I wasn't going very fast.

So, I said, about 7 or 8 over - which is honestly what I thoguht I was doing. He claimed his radar put me at 12 over. I was of course polite and respectful to him. He wrote me up for 10 over because he was a "nice guy."

It was only $91 but I really want to keep my record clean.

Contacted Guy Glenn law firm in Long Beach as I didn't want to pay some lawyer to drive to Long Beach and back and it seems they're the only game in town down there. Was tempted to go fight it myself and get a deferral at the least but this way i didn't even have to go down there from Seattle to appear.

Here's how it turned out: Because I'd said "7 or 8 over", the prosecutor figured that was enough to convict so he didn't subpeona the radar tech to the court appearance by my lawyer (Nathan Needham of the Guy Glenn Firm.)

Needham moved for dismissal on the grounds that radar tech didn't show up. Judge decided she needed to sit on it for several weeks to decide. Great, huh?

Two weeks later, a letter showed up from the Guy Glenn firm with a copy of the dismissal.

Cost: $350 (Painful but worthwhile in the end.)

As I see it, this was more prosecutorial flubbery than good defense lawyering but the result is what mattered to me.

I learned my lesson, next time I'll just do 90 instead of trying to stay below 10 over! (Kidding.)

FreerideSeattle

What bullshit. Good to hear you got off. I have Tom Ellington on my ticket for S. Bend, but court date isn't until Oct. so still don't know the outcome.

suomycasino

I used DUIEsq a local pnw rider and he got my failure to yield with a collision dissmissed. I would have paid the ticket if it was just a failure to yield but with the collision i paid a lawyer. He offered me a fellow pnw rider 20% off his normal rates.

gixxerguy76

Anyone have a recommendation on who to use for over in sequim wa? Just got one on Friday.

mikefsu

Does he work in the everett area? Or should I just call and find out?

suomycasino

pm sent

sukiryder

Hi, I need recommendation for a traffic lawyer in klickitat county. I am not sure if the listed lawyers will do that county

KillermondoDude

Jennie Muckleshoot FOR THA WIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Neg driving 3rd FROM A PLANE
Itchysqua District court
Dismissed

KillermondoDude

Oh and Sulky get in touch with one of the stated lawyers if they wont do Klickitat they will probably recomend somone that does

sukiryder

thanks for the reply

nemesis

Do we have a list floating around of Spokane Traffic Attories? Coworker got popped on Friday in his cage.. Looking to fight it.

FreerideSeattle

Success! Tom worked a deal with the prosecutor for a deal where they dropped it to $101 (from $14 and changed it to a "fail to sign vehicle registration" ticket which is a non-moving violation.

Tom can be contacted at NotGuiltyAgain@aol.com or 253-219-3916. He'll get my business again.

Moltenice

Hey, I picked up a Negligent 2nd degree on Baker Highway for passing a civic going 10 under over a double yellow. It was horrible, i was straight and there werent any cars. I have never seen the Sherrifs up there before. What the luck huh...

Anyways, I contacted James Mucklestone and he called me back. He said $750 for him to take care of it. Original ticket is $550.

I am debating the whole thing right now. I am not sure if I can get a deferral on a neg 2, but that is my other option.
He seemed very confident and didnt want to know any other information about it. Which I guess is normal from what I read here.

You think he could win? Anyone know if you can get a deferral on a neg 2? It would suck for him to lose and me have to pay the ticket price of $550 and the $750 for him to lose.

wordsareforplay

Generally the Mucklestones will not take your ticket if they're not 99.9% sure they can win - it hurts their W/L ratio and is bad for their word of mouth. That's part of how they keep the high ratio and the high prices.

Moltenice