Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-24-2011, 07:18 AM   #21
Shredder
Veloc's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2011
From: Tanasbourne, OR

I Ride: '08 R6, '07 S2R 1000, '10 Ninjette #791
“ Quote:
Originally Posted by Duck View Post
If you read the original post you can see that I do understand drivetrain loss.

I see a lot of comments on here suggesting that it will do nothing and that octane only helps produce compression. Well on a motor that is designed to run higher octane obviously this would help with compression. I think the bottom line on this issue is that none of our bikes are tuned exactly how they should be and to get them there takes more time an effort than most of us will put in to it. I put octane booster in a couple tanks recently and the bike felt a little smoother on acceleration but I don't feel like buying a bottle of octane booster every time I hit the pump.
You were the one who brought up the disparity between factory BHP and the actual dyno-verified WHP numbers. An engine that produces 140bhp is likely to only see around 110whp, and that's even under prime conditions. Even so, you aren't going to find many engines from any factory that produce as much power as the ad copy states - that number was derived from a hand-picked factory example, running in perfect conditions. This is why some people get "factory freaks" that seem to produce more power than other engines from the same line (a buddy of mine always manages to get them - bastard).

One entire bottle of octane booster increases the effective octane of the fuel by few points of rating, e.g. 92 becomes 92.3. That isn't enough to do anything except adjust for minor variations in either ambient conditions or internal combustion issues (in a computer-controlled FI engine, this is already handled by the ECU through adjusting timing advance and injector pulse width to richen up the A:F mixture).

Besides, as has already been said, US fuel is the same effective octane as Euro fuel. We calculate it differently by averaging RON and MON, rather than by simply going from one number or the other. This results in a slightly lower "number", even though the fuel has exactly the same anti-knock properties. You will not see any greater timing advance on fuel from the UK than from the PacNW.

No more timing advance = no more torque from higher octane. Now, depending on whether they use ethanol to adjust their fuel over there as we do here, they could be turning slightly higher power numbers. E10 is terrible for making power - you lose 3% right off the bat, and can't make it up anywhere (the effective octane is the same, so you don't get to use ethanol's knock resistance to dial up any more advance). This is simply down to ethanol's lower energy density. You can still get E00, but you're going to pay for it. Power numbers and mileage do go up once re-tuned for proper fuel. However, again, this is all handled by the ECU every 30-50 miles as well as when doing a "training" session after unhooking the battery.

On the other hand, this is assuming that your ECU isn't of a "dumb" variety which only runs from pre-programmed fuel maps and doesn't also adjust timing on the fly. I've never seen one of those but I've heard-tell of such archaic devices from the mystical age of early fuel injection. Legend has it that one of my very own cars had such a system, produced by something called a "ren-ohhhh", but I have a hard time believing such claptrap and tomfoolery.

__________________
Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter
 

Old 09-24-2011, 08:16 AM   #22
Novice Racer
Andy Capp's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2010
From: Marysville, WA

I Ride: 08 675, 72 XL250, 93 PW80, 80 GS250
“ Quote:
Originally Posted by BMXKING View Post
"Italy: 95 RON is the only compulsory gasoline offered

"United States: in the US octane rating is displayed in AKI. 85 AKI (90 RON) is the minimum octane, and 91 AKI (95 RON) is the maximum octane available in fuel"

See? Premium here is the same as gas there. Shouldnt stress about it homie.
What's the source of that info? Wiki? Because it is incorrect. 98-99 RON is widely available as super unleaded across Europe. Although not common, higher rated fuel can be found at the pump.

__________________
Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter
 
Old 09-24-2011, 08:25 AM   #23
Superbiker
dartmanx5's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2010
From: Rock Island,WA/ Volcano, HI

I Ride: ^That^
I'm thinking that unless your motor has been modded quite a bit, you'll be fine running regular. My Fiz ran great on regular unleaded stock, but when I started throwing aftermarket parts on it (mainly the 5 degree timing kit) it started preferring premium over regular, and it's what $1 more to go premium over regular at the pump when you fill your tank? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that, unless your bike is heavily modified, making it nearly un-streetable anyways, you'll be good to go with premium.

__________________
Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter
 
Old 09-24-2011, 09:56 AM   #24
Shredder
Veloc's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2011
From: Tanasbourne, OR

I Ride: '08 R6, '07 S2R 1000, '10 Ninjette #791
“ Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Capp View Post
What's the source of that info? Wiki? Because it is incorrect. 98-99 RON is widely available as super unleaded across Europe. Although not common, higher rated fuel can be found at the pump.
It's available in the US as well in some places. Sold as 93 octane. Of course, those poor bastards in Cali have it REAL rough - 91 octane piss water!

__________________
Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter
 
Old 09-24-2011, 01:50 PM   #25
Licensed
BMXKING's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2011
From: Yakima, WA

I Ride: 02 R1
“ Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Capp View Post
What's the source of that info? Wiki? Because it is incorrect. 98-99 RON is widely available as super unleaded across Europe. Although not common, higher rated fuel can be found at the pump.
read what I said again... It says in USA.

__________________
Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter
 
Old 09-24-2011, 02:01 PM   #26
Novice Racer
Andy Capp's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2010
From: Marysville, WA

I Ride: 08 675, 72 XL250, 93 PW80, 80 GS250
.....And it is wrong, as kindly illustrated by Veloc. Maybe I should have started a new paragraph.

__________________
Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter

Last edited by Andy Capp; 09-24-2011 at 02:04 PM..
 
Old 09-24-2011, 02:14 PM   #27
Licensed
BMXKING's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2011
From: Yakima, WA

I Ride: 02 R1
Andy, You said across Europe... I said USA. Also, of course it isnt true of ALL places in USA because I can go 2 miles from my house and get 100 aki. Or the other way and get avgas, alcohol etc. I see that my quote is somewhat out of the proper context. The point of it is to show that 91 here is the same as the 95 there and that he shouldnt worry about it because premium is working fine in his bike.

__________________
Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter
 
Old 09-24-2011, 02:15 PM   #28
Licensed
BMXKING's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2011
From: Yakima, WA

I Ride: 02 R1
“ Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Capp View Post
98-99 RON is widely available as super unleaded across Europe.
see>?

__________________
Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter
 
Old 09-24-2011, 02:42 PM   #29
Licensed
wsurc51's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2004
From: Yakima, WA

I Ride: 2008 Ducati 1098S, 2005 Yamaha R1 (gone) 2001 Honda RC51 (gone) 1996 Honda VFR750 (gone) 1974 BMW R90/6 (gone)...and a few others you don't care about
This thread is fucked. There are just too many geniuses for one forum.

__________________
Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter
 
Old 09-24-2011, 02:50 PM   #30
Novice Racer
Andy Capp's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2010
From: Marysville, WA

I Ride: 08 675, 72 XL250, 93 PW80, 80 GS250
“ Quote:
Originally Posted by BMXKING View Post
Andy, You said across Europe... I said USA. Also, of course it isnt true of ALL places in USA because I can go 2 miles from my house and get 100 aki. Or the other way and get avgas, alcohol etc. I see that my quote is somewhat out of the proper context. The point of it is to show that 91 here is the same as the 95 there and that he shouldnt worry about it because premium is working fine in his bike.
You could have used a simple aki/Ron equivalency chart to make that point. Instead you make implications that in Italy (Europe) and the USA 95RON is all you're going to get and to do it knowing it's not true is strange to say the least. Why not supply evidence on how his Duc will run on 91aki?

My only point being in Italy/Europe a higher octane fuel is readily available. In the PNW not so much.

__________________
Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter
 
Old 09-24-2011, 05:01 PM   #31
Licensed
Duck's Avatar
OP
 
Joined: Jun 2011
From: Yakima, WA

I Ride: 1199 Panigale
“ Quote:
Originally Posted by wsurc51 View Post
This thread is fucked. There are just too many geniuses for one forum.
That's why I stopped replying. Still makes an interesting argument as to who is right since everyone has a counter argument against each other. Which genius to believe...

__________________
Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter
 
Old 09-24-2011, 06:47 PM   #32
Licensed
BMXKING's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2011
From: Yakima, WA

I Ride: 02 R1
Andy, while carefully considering your reply, I made you this:


__________________
Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter
 
Old 09-24-2011, 07:20 PM   #33
Knee Dragger
Driftertank's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2008
From: Assorted Locations, WA
Blog Entries: 7

I Ride: Nekkid!!!

__________________
Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter
 
Old 09-24-2011, 09:37 PM   #34
Peg Dragger
Lepy's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2010
From: Easy street
Blog Entries: 1

I Ride: because it tickles
You know.... some drag bikes use 85 or 87 octane that is oxygenated and I have never heard one of them talking about fuel being a lack of their power... just saying... I have run 110 leaded in my 636, it smells cool, but other than that, I didn't see much gain. Really the only thing I see as a benefit of running higher octane in your (bullshit market advertized piece of shit) Ducati is that your fuel will be consistent. Your bike is weak, your fuel is not an issue. .02

__________________
Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter
 
Old 09-25-2011, 09:18 AM   #35
Shredder
Veloc's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2011
From: Tanasbourne, OR

I Ride: '08 R6, '07 S2R 1000, '10 Ninjette #791
“ Quote:
Originally Posted by Duck View Post
That's why I stopped replying. Still makes an interesting argument as to who is right since everyone has a counter argument against each other. Which genius to believe...
Actually, everybody seemed to be in consensus: higher octane fuel will not provide any benefit without re-tuning. There wasn't any argument at all over this point.

Whether it's worth it or not was a bit contentious, because that's purely subjective. Some people don't mind the added expense of race gas (I'm one of 'em, but my bike isn't tuned for it).

Octane boosters don't do anything useful. This has been known since the dawn of time. They are so dilute that they are only meant to give that last little "bump" up to spec for gas that was mixed incorrectly at the pump, or has started to go bad. Better to just buy a gallon of xylene.

Where different octanes are available was in debate, but that was smoothed over nicely. RON ratings are always numerically higher than MON ratings, due to the nature of the testing. AKI is an average of the two. All readily-available RON rated fuels in Europe are available in the US, but limited by State and listed by the AKI number.

"Every review you read on these bikes you notice that the rear wheel horsepower is significantly lower than the claimed output from the crank. I would expect a lot of loss simply because of the way that motorcycle suspensions run but to go from putting out 141 to rear wheel at 117 seems a little ridiculous to me." - I explained why this is not ridiculous at all, and is indeed quite normal. BHP v. WHP drivetrain loss is regularly as high as 30%. 141 - 117 = 24 = 17% which is a really freakin' good loss figure. Single-wheel driven FWD cars where the output is run directly from the tranny to the driven wheel don't often do better than 17%, and they don't have a chain eating energy.

So yeah, I'd say this thread has actually been pretty well informative and answered all of your concerns neatly and completely. If you don't wish to take these replies seriously, because they don't align with what you've already decided in your mind, well, you can lead a horse to water...

__________________
Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter
 
Old 09-25-2011, 12:28 PM   #36
Licensed
mcote's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2011
From: in the 509

I Ride: when i feel like it
“ Quote:
Originally Posted by BMXKING View Post
Andy, while carefully considering your reply, I made you this:


that looks like a kitten.... WTF is that.

__________________
Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter
 
Old 09-25-2011, 05:09 PM   #37
Licensed
Duck's Avatar
OP
 
Joined: Jun 2011
From: Yakima, WA

I Ride: 1199 Panigale
“ Quote:
Originally Posted by Lepy View Post
You know.... some drag bikes use 85 or 87 octane that is oxygenated and I have never heard one of them talking about fuel being a lack of their power... just saying... I have run 110 leaded in my 636, it smells cool, but other than that, I didn't see much gain. Really the only thing I see as a benefit of running higher octane in your (bullshit market advertized piece of shit) Ducati is that your fuel will be consistent. Your bike is weak, your fuel is not an issue. .02
Wow some haters in here! I'll jump, how do you figure my bike is weak?

__________________
Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter
 
Old 09-25-2011, 06:51 PM   #38
Shredder
Veloc's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2011
From: Tanasbourne, OR

I Ride: '08 R6, '07 S2R 1000, '10 Ninjette #791
Ok, so Duck is just trolling. Noted for the future.

__________________
Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter
 
Old 09-25-2011, 08:41 PM   #39
Railer
StropeSled's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2006
From: Yakima

I Ride: 2014 Ducati 1199 Panagalie 2011 Ducati 848 EVO(gone) 06 r6 (gone)
“ Quote:
Originally Posted by Lepy View Post
Really the only thing I see as a benefit of running higher octane in your (bullshit market advertized piece of shit) Ducati is that your fuel will be consistent. Your bike is weak, your fuel is not an issue. .02


People will always hate the ones who have what they want

__________________
Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter

Last edited by StropeSled; 09-25-2011 at 08:43 PM..
 
Old 10-22-2011, 02:59 PM   #40
Peg Dragger
Lepy's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2010
From: Easy street
Blog Entries: 1

I Ride: because it tickles
“ Quote:
Originally Posted by Duck View Post
Wow some haters in here! I'll jump, how do you figure my bike is weak?
Haven't met a fast one yet.... so yeah, your bike is weak. Not saying it doesn't have it's place, I think the handling is dope along with the design. I just don't see why they advertise to be the fastest and best bike when they really aren't that fast. Just saying. neg rep me again....

The factory and rider reviews put up horsepower ratings for advertisement and to show how bikes compare, so that they may SELL bikes. Ducati, I think is over priced and well marketed, but in performance they just don't hold up to a late model (1995-2005) 600cc bike. So why did someone pay $15,000 for a bike that is not as quick as a $7,000 bike?

Neg rep me twice for that...

__________________
Follow PNW Riders on Facebook and Twitter
 
Reply

  PNW Riders > Washington Riders > Central > Yakima


Thread Tools
Display Modes



/pnwriders @pnwriders PNW Riders RSS Feed